The Manband Forum

General Category => Man - General Discussion => Topic started by: Allan Heron on August 06, 2008, 05:44:40 PM

Title: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Allan Heron on August 06, 2008, 05:44:40 PM
http://concerts.wolfgangsvault.com/dt/man-concert/2445-4376.html (http://concerts.wolfgangsvault.com/dt/man-concert/2445-4376.html)
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Tony Smith on August 06, 2008, 07:24:10 PM
Hey Allan , is there anyway that the Wolfgangs vault can be downloaded, ive looked but can't find away
cheers
tony
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob W on August 06, 2008, 07:49:36 PM
I have wolfgangs vault and they email me every week with the latest gigs. Being heavily a Winterland thing, I was always disappointed there was never any Man. I didn't know of this, though, until our Scottish correspondent who lives in the land of grey and pink, made that post. 
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: John Bannon on August 06, 2008, 08:57:42 PM
It's good to see Man concerts finally making onto Wolfgang's Vault, they have lot's of nice Man posters.....if you can afford their prices.
Can I be the first to say, I'm not overly impressed with the Jam with John Cippolina, may have had his day by 1975, especially when you hear reports of Micky overdubbing bits of Maximum Darkness in 1974. Don't get me wrong love his work with QSMS in the late 60's and early 70's and that should be respected. Lets not look through rose tinted glasses though.
Brings me onto another subject, maybe this should be under other bands, people have been putting up favourite music to listen to, The Grateful Dead being very prominent in this section, Is it me, I have a mate that every other day put's yet another CD through the letterbox ordering me to listen to yet another release by them, I've been forced to listen to everything barring farts and burps by this group and I still can't take to them, certain live bits of Dark Star are OK but the rest, it's very hard to bear. I took a lot of acid in my youth, but no amount of drugs would induce me to like that American folk/country pap, crap and any other word that rhymes, very middle of the road music they churned out. You wouldn't even hear this music in a Califorinian lift/elevator, would just bore too many people to death. Anybody that pretends to like this music and you must be pretending, can I remind you the Freak Train left town years ago and you should have been on it.
And while I'm mood, Safe as Milk (excellent),  Mirror Man (very good), Trout Mask Replica, one of the all time greatest albums, someone's having a laugh. I have played this over and over again, I really want to like it, feel out of conversations when people are extolling it's virtures and still can't get into one single track.
I know One Man's beef is another Man's poison and music is in the ear of the beholder.But let's be real!
Hopefully this will stir up a little bit of a debate, the forum's gone a little bit quite of late.
Hi Rob, Speak to you soon.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Mike Cross on August 06, 2008, 09:26:43 PM
Hey Allan , is there anyway that the Wolfgangs vault can be downloaded, ive looked but can't find away
cheers
tony

Even if they don't provide a direct download link, you can record the music as you listen to it online, using an appropriate piece of software eg Audacity (freeware,  http://audacity.sourceforge.net (http://audacity.sourceforge.net) ) and then save it to your hard disc. You may need to select the correct sound source (eg Stereo Mixer, rather than Mic, Line In, CD In, etc) and adjust the recording level; this can usually be done via the control panel for your sound card. 
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on August 06, 2008, 10:25:16 PM
It's good to see Man concerts finally making onto Wolfgang's Vault, they have lot's of nice Man posters.....if you can afford their prices.
Can I be the first to say, I'm not overly impressed with the Jam with John Cippolina, may have had his day by 1975, especially when you hear reports of Micky overdubbing bits of Maximum Darkness in 1974. Don't get me wrong love his work with QSMS in the late 60's and early 70's and that should be respected. Lets not look through rose tinted glasses though.
Brings me onto another subject, maybe this should be under other bands, people have been putting up favourite music to listen to, The Grateful Dead being very prominent in this section, Is it me, I have a mate that every other day put's yet another CD through the letterbox ordering me to listen to yet another release by them, I've been forced to listen to everything barring farts and burps by this group and I still can't take to them, certain live bits of Dark Star are OK but the rest, it's very hard to bear. I took a lot of acid in my youth, but no amount of drugs would induce me to like that American folk/country pap, crap and any other word that rhymes, very middle of the road music they churned out. You wouldn't even hear this music in a Califorinian lift/elevator, would just bore too many people to death. Anybody that pretends to like this music and you must be pretending, can I remind you the Freak Train left town years ago and you should have been on it.
And while I'm mood, Safe as Milk (excellent),  Mirror Man (very good), Trout Mask Replica, one of the all time greatest albums, someone's having a laugh. I have played this over and over again, I really want to like it, feel out of conversations when people are extolling it's virtures and still can't get into one single track.
I know One Man's beef is another Man's poison and music is in the ear of the beholder.But let's be real!
Hopefully this will stir up a little bit of a debate, the forum's gone a little bit quite of late.
Hi Rob, Speak to you soon.

Very true - a mate and I both love Frank Zappa. The difference being that (while I can dig it a little weirder than Hot Rats) I know when to call it a day, but my mate reckons that Lumpy Gravy is the best album ever made. Figure that!
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Allan Heron on August 06, 2008, 11:11:48 PM
....but my mate reckons that Lumpy Gravy is the best album ever made. Figure that!

Some great singsongs to be had listening to that  ???
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on August 06, 2008, 11:17:41 PM
....but my mate reckons that Lumpy Gravy is the best album ever made. Figure that!

Some great singsongs to be had listening to that  ???

Oh aye. That and Spooky Tooth's ceremony and you're away! ;D
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: John Bannon on August 06, 2008, 11:18:53 PM
Hi Rob, Grew up in a little town called Cwmbran in S. Wales and had a mate that could quote every single word from every Zappa LP in the early days, I would rate Hot Rats in anyone's top twenty LP's and with this bit of knowledge and a mate who idolized Zappa went out and bought Joe's Garage 1,2 &3, between the whole three LP's there must be about fifteen minutes of good music.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on August 06, 2008, 11:24:09 PM
Hi Rob, Grew up in a little town called Cwmbran in S. Wales and had a mate that could quote every single word from every Zappa LP in the early days, I would rate Hot Rats in anyone's top twenty LP's and with this bit of knowledge and a mate who idolized Zappa went out and bought Joe's Garage 1,2 &3, between the whole three LP's there must be about fifteen minutes of good music.

If that.

I could probably whittle my Zappa collection down to a dozen essential LPs and bin off a few. ("What a good idea!" - Mrs Rob the Organ).
He's just like Tom Waits, Beefheart - up with the best when he's good but f***ing dreadful when slightly off the boil.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Mike Cross on August 06, 2008, 11:48:19 PM
Re: Zappa

I've loved Hot Rats ever since I first heard it 30-some years ago. I've dipped my toes in the Zappa/Mothers waters quite a few times over the years, encouraged by rave reviews of this or that album, and have never found another to match Hot Rats for quality and consistency.

eg Freak Out - the concise songs are great but the long ones bore me. Chunga's Revenge - mostly very good. Waka Jawaka, Grand Wazoo,  & Orchestral Favourites  - don't do much for me. Overnite Sensation - ho-hum.. Shut Up n Play Your Guitar - thought this worth a try as I do like his extended soloing but nah. Zoot Allures - a couple of v fine tracks but the rest just OK. Mothers Live at the Fillmore - nah.

Trout Mask Replica - never made it to the end of side 1!

The Dead - my first exposure was Workingman's Dead, which must have put me off for quite a while. I like Dark Star on Live Dead, but everything else I've heard just doesn't much for me, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Pete T on August 07, 2008, 12:00:16 AM
The Grateful Dead being very prominent in this section, Is it me?

I like the Dead, mid and later albums drift a bit, but their first album, funnily enough called "Grateful Dead" is a stunning masterpiece. Easily equivalent to QMS's first..
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on August 07, 2008, 01:02:45 AM
Zappa:
Freak Out!
Absolutely Free
We're Only In It...
Uncle Meat
Hot Rats
Weasels...
Chungas
Fillmore 71
Just Another Band
Overnite Sensation
Apostrophe

Dead
1st (a masterpiece as earlier asserted)
Anthem of the Sun
Aoxomoxoa
Live Dead
Workingmans
American Beauty
Skull & Roses
Europe 72

These are albums I love by artists I love. I feel I love them enough to be able to say that, other than odd tracks here and there, the rest of either artists' (considerable) catalogue is pretty dire stuff and I have all the sympathy in the world for folks that hate either Frank or the Dead when they have cited certain albums as an introduction.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on August 07, 2008, 01:05:33 AM
The Grateful Dead being very prominent in this section, Is it me?

I like the Dead, mid and later albums drift a bit, but their first album, funnily enough called "Grateful Dead" is a stunning masterpiece. Easily equivalent to QMS's first..

Hang on a minute, Pete. Your quote has made it look like ME that questions the Dead. It was John B!
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Allan Heron on August 07, 2008, 01:40:02 AM
Wot!! No One Size Fits All in the best of Zappa  :o
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Ron S on August 07, 2008, 01:42:12 AM
I like both, but I think the first albums by both are really their best. Zappa just extrapolated on the ideas heard of Freak Out. The Dead just never sounded as fun after the debut.


Zappa:
Freak Out!
Absolutely Free
We're Only In It...
Uncle Meat
Hot Rats
Weasels...
Chungas
Fillmore 71
Just Another Band
Overnite Sensation
Apostrophe

Dead
1st (a masterpiece as earlier asserted)
Anthem of the Sun
Aoxomoxoa
Live Dead
Workingmans
American Beauty
Skull & Roses
Europe 72

These are albums I love by artists I love. I feel I love them enough to be able to say that, other than odd tracks here and there, the rest of either artists' (considerable) catalogue is pretty dire stuff and I have all the sympathy in the world for folks that hate either Frank or the Dead when they have cited certain albums as an introduction.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on August 07, 2008, 02:12:09 AM
Ron - that's it perfectly. They don't sound as much FUN ever again.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Pete T on August 07, 2008, 08:18:15 AM
Hang on a minute, Pete. Your quote has made it look like ME that questions the Dead. It was John B!
Sorry Rob O, lost in cutting out the drivel!! ::)
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Nick Ring on August 07, 2008, 09:13:26 AM
   Just to stir the sh*te abit,  wasn't Dark Star a rip off of the Butterfield Blues Band Track  East & West off the album of the same name?

              Glob Heads of the world unite.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Andrew P on August 07, 2008, 10:53:42 AM
 :)Thanks Rob The Organ - I was about to compose an email asking for a beginners guide to The Grateful Dead, so your list of what's what is going to be a great help and is much appreciated.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Campbell on August 07, 2008, 11:04:55 AM
just listening to Man on Wolfgangs Vault as I write this.It's really wonderful stuff,Martin very much acting as the MC just as he does now and on very good form.
The hairs on the back of the neck standing up as I listen to Many are Called-a cliched expression but it's true.
It would be nice to think the Men are receiving a royalty for this but somehow I doubt it,I know many concerts are available to buy from this site but cant see that the Man set is available to purchase.
Essential listening methinks.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Martin Daughton on August 07, 2008, 01:40:25 PM
Great debate.
I have always thought that there has been an element of "if it is very difficult to listen to, it must be good" about some music or "if it is by such and such then blind (deaf?) acceptance is due".
I can't think of a single band who's output hasn't included some utter dross, sometimes a whole albums worth.
But the point is that all music will find an audience.

Never argue music, religion and politics but at least music never caused a war.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Martin Daughton on August 07, 2008, 03:22:23 PM
Talking of Zappa, has anyone ever thought of doing a version of "Valley Girl" but based in Merthyr?
I know I have...
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Ron S on August 07, 2008, 03:26:24 PM
   Just to stir the sh*te abit,  wasn't Dark Star a rip off of the Butterfield Blues Band Track  East & West off the album of the same name?

              Glob Heads of the world unite.


East West was a huge influence on a lot of music. It took some of the Jeff Beck - Yardbirds ideas and extended them into a longer suite concept. The importance of Butterfield is often overlook these days. When I interviewed Richie Unterberger, he flat out said they were not an important band!
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Tony Smith on August 07, 2008, 07:33:17 PM
Hey Allan , is there anyway that the Wolfgangs vault can be downloaded, ive looked but can't find away
cheers
tony

Even if they don't provide a direct download link, you can record the music as you listen to it online, using an appropriate piece of software eg Audacity (freeware,  http://audacity.sourceforge.net (http://audacity.sourceforge.net) ) and then save it to your hard disc. You may need to select the correct sound source (eg Stereo Mixer, rather than Mic, Line In, CD In, etc) and adjust the recording level; this can usually be done via the control panel for your sound card. 
Hi Mike i downloaded that programe , but now i still dont know how to capture the Wolfgang show , if you have it could i buy a copy from you please
cheers
tony
antony.smith80@ntlworld.com
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Pete T on August 07, 2008, 07:37:03 PM
..using an appropriate piece of software eg Audacity..  
Hi Mike i downloaded that programe , but now i still dont know how to capture the Wolfgang show...

Yeah, having the same probs, set audacity recording, start the music playing, changed just about every setting I can find, but no way that's going to record.. ???
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on August 07, 2008, 08:40:18 PM
:)Thanks Rob The Organ - I was about to compose an email asking for a beginners guide to The Grateful Dead, so your list of what's what is going to be a great help and is much appreciated.

Ah, but Andrew - that's not necessarily a beginners guide to the Dead. Anthem of the Sun certainly isn't one to start out with!

For a beginners guide, I'd opt for three (albeit one of them a 3LP set) titles:

GRATEFUL DEAD (1st album; 1967)
As Ron says - fun. Still a lot of "freak beat" going on there, mostly quite uptempo, all clanging guitars and Vox organ with the occasional taster from Garcia of what's to come later. Viola Lee Blues is the only true wig-out on here, and Garcia's breathtaking bluegrass-voiced solo in their countrified take of "Sitting on Top of the World" is worthy of a mention. Still a great bar-band in those days, and the late Pigpen very much the frontman, whether from behind the organ or when blowing his harp.

AMERICAN BEAUTY (1970)
The second of two "back to basics" LPs from the post-psychedelic era. This phase was very useful in seeing which of the San Francisco notables were actually any good in the cold light of day! As well as the changing times, The Band had happened by then and pushed the "reset" button, bringing a shift to more focused, simpler songs with some roots tradition. The Dead rose to the challenge perfectly, whereas Jefferson Airplane started to fall apart (except Hot Tuna who emerged strong) and Quicksilver reunited with Dino Valenti and... well. Choice cuts are Sugar Magnolia, Ripple, Friend of the Devil, Truck...oh, all of it.

EUROPE '72
Originally a triple vinyl, some strong performances from their Euro jaunt in 1972 - albeit tidied up a little before release. Great guitar from Garcia and plenty of back catalogue gems given an extended airing. Pigpen's swansong. Not much more to say really - "does what it says on the tin".

See how you get on there, then try Live Dead and Workingmans Dead, followed by the rest of the 67-72 catalogue. Hope this helps! :-\
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Tony Smith on August 07, 2008, 08:54:44 PM
im looking forward to the rockin the cradle release of the dead from the pyramids  2 or 3 cd set plus dvd  due in sept from rhino   .
cheers
tony ;D
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: mikes on August 07, 2008, 09:01:08 PM
Were the Dead a good band?

I somehow liked "Box of Rain" from American Beauty, because it's a nice construction, nice harmonies etc., but all in all it's not tight enough to please me. And I think they never really got the vocals right, although they did choirs a lot ...
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on August 07, 2008, 09:24:39 PM
Box of Rain is a beautiful song but you're right - it could have been tighter. CSNY helped them arrange the vocals on that album, though. You'd think that would have sorted them out - but then again if it was around the time of "Four Way Street" maybe not!!!!

Phil Lesh rarely took a lead vocal with the Dead but always sung this one as he wrote most of it (the tune) in his car commuting to and from his father's hospital deathbed. Hunter's lyrics are as spot-on as ever.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Mike Cross on August 07, 2008, 09:50:23 PM
Pete, Tony,

Looks like I've let myself in for something here  ;)

NB I'm talking PC, Windows XP here, as that's what I have handy. The basics should be the same for Vista, or for older versions of Windows.


Your problem(s) probably relate to this bit:

Quote
You may need to select the correct sound source (eg Stereo Mixer, rather than Mic, Line In, CD In, etc) and adjust the recording level; this can usually be done via the control panel for your sound card.

where I deliberately skated over the details as they are going to vary from PC to PC depending on what sound card is installed.

You need to find the program that controls how your sound card (or onbound sound) is configured, and set options within that. Again, sadly, how you get to that program can vary too.

There may be an icon in the system tray which you can hover over, and then right-click on to run it. On the other hand, there may be an entry in the Start Menu which corresponds to the name or manufacturer of the sound hardware. Or an icon within the Windows Control Panel (again with name of the card or manufacturer). There might even be all three variations... all leading to the same place.


I've attached a screenshot of the control program for the onboard sound on the PC I'm typing this on, which shows the options relating to recording.

Master Volume: controls the overall volume and balance for all sound being played via Windows.

Recording Level: controls the recording level and balance while recording.

Recording Select: selects the source of the sound to be recorded. In this case I've selected  Stereo Mixer, which is the sound playing through Windows. The other options here correspond to different input sockets on your PC (Microphone, Line In, CD drive, etc).


You need to play with the Master Volume, and Recording Level settings while the music is playing so that the bars showing the recording don't go into the red much (or at all). You can do all this while listening to what you want to record, but without Audacity running. Once things are adjusted, stop the streaming audio, start Audacity, hit the record button, and start the stream again. Once the stream has finished, hit the Stop button in  Audacity, and save the music in whatever format you prefer. Once it's saved to disc, stay in Audacity and edit any extra from th start & end, and re-save.



You also need to make sure that a couple of settings within Audacity are correct:

Edit -> Preferences -> Audio I/O -> Recording

        Device: Will probably be already set to Microsoft Sound Mapper - Input (this may well be OK). There may be another option in the dropdown list which refers to your sound card.

Edit -> Preferences -> Quality

   Check what it says here. If you're going to burn to CD eventually, this should be set to 44100 Hz


Hope this helps...
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Tony Smith on August 07, 2008, 10:14:28 PM
 :oThanks mike to be truthfull that all looks really to complicated for  me , but thanks for taking time to explain
cheers
tony ;D
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Peter Steventon on August 08, 2008, 09:39:22 AM
Lost me after Windows XP  ???  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Pete T on August 08, 2008, 01:55:16 PM
Lost me after Windows XP  ???  ;D  ;D
You got that far?!!
Mike, just stick it on Dime, I can do that!!
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: njpaul on August 08, 2008, 06:01:05 PM
Two things:

In an interview in Guitar Player from the mid-seventies Micky and Deke had to overdud guitar parts on Bananas on Maximum Darkness because of Cippolina being out of tune.  The earliy '60 Les Paul SG's, were notoriously bad at staying in tune because they had no heel at the joint with the body, and were very thin at the top of the neck by the nut.

The Dead are at their best live.  I'd recomend Europe '72 and Live Dead (the one with Dark Star, St Stephen).  This will give you a good sample of the Dead at their simplist and their most complex.  Anthem of the Sun, Workingman's Dead and Blues for Allah are my favorite studio albums, although Anthem is half live.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Mike Cross on August 08, 2008, 06:29:41 PM
Pete,

Lost me after Windows XP  ???  ;D  ;D
You got that far?!!
Mike, just stick it on Dime, I can do that!!

I haven't actually grabbed it myself yet.... bandwidth busy with torrents at the moment. Hopefully I'll get it sometime during the weekend.

However, it may not be 'legal' as far as Dime is concerned.... I've an idea, hope I'm wrong, that all the stuff streamed on Wolfgang's is in a lossy format.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Tony Smith on August 08, 2008, 07:43:55 PM
 ;D whats lassy format, ah i remember the days when one just dropped a needle on black plastic!
 ::) cheers
tony
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Ron S on August 08, 2008, 10:06:25 PM
Two things:

In an interview in Guitar Player from the mid-seventies Micky and Deke had to overdud guitar parts on Bananas on Maximum Darkness because of Cippolina being out of tune.  The earliy '60 Les Paul SG's, were notoriously bad at staying in tune because they had no heel at the joint with the body, and were very thin at the top of the neck by the nut.

The Dead are at their best live.  I'd recomend Europe '72 and Live Dead (the one with Dark Star, St Stephen).  This will give you a good sample of the Dead at their simplist and their most complex.  Anthem of the Sun, Workingman's Dead and Blues for Allah are my favorite studio albums, although Anthem is half live.

John's guitar was totally customized. He once told me he had filed down the spring on his Bigsby, to give it a lighter touch. This and the light guage strings he used caused problems. It didn't matter what guitar he was using, he was often out of tune. I used to call him "Mr 75%". If the Guitar Slinger vid, I believe someone points out that John had problems tuning. I think he was deaf too. That big amp stack he had. Ouch.


And, remember, he was playing lap steel on Bananas! When he played with them in 76, he had worked out a nifty part to play on a regular guitar. Check out the version on the Terrascope CD.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on August 08, 2008, 10:31:48 PM
Two things:

In an interview in Guitar Player from the mid-seventies Micky and Deke had to overdud guitar parts on Bananas on Maximum Darkness because of Cippolina being out of tune.  The earliy '60 Les Paul SG's, were notoriously bad at staying in tune because they had no heel at the joint with the body, and were very thin at the top of the neck by the nut.

The Dead are at their best live.  I'd recomend Europe '72 and Live Dead (the one with Dark Star, St Stephen).  This will give you a good sample of the Dead at their simplist and their most complex.  Anthem of the Sun, Workingman's Dead and Blues for Allah are my favorite studio albums, although Anthem is half live.

SGs haven't improved much today, either. I had a nineties SG standard and that went out of tune if you did so much as fart near it. It's not about the neck heel itself - the later 60s models sported a beefed up heel joint but this made no difference - it remained as weak and unstable because of where the neck pickup cavity is in relation to the cutaways. In the seventies they set the neck a bit further in and these are a little more stable and consistent if not so prized as collectables. Ron - didn't you post a pic the other day of such an SG?

Interestingly Cippo always maintained his SG was a 1959. Clearly a mistake as they didn't make them until 1961. There were TWO batwing SGs I believe - the prized Maximum Darkness beast, and the other one was far simpler, retaining the cherry red colour and original fingerboard. Gary Duncan can be seen playing it (long after JC left) with QMS on the Last days of the Fillmore movie, and JC himself is toting it on the back of the first QMS album. The Monterey '67 clip shows it before any bastardisation, looking far more stock like Micky's SG.


Anthem is half live, but it's the studio side that actually wins out IMO. The other two live sets you mention - plus 1971's Skull & Roses 2LP - absolutely stonking.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: njpaul on August 09, 2008, 01:37:43 AM
I have a '68 SG Special, it has a bigger heel at the body, but still has the thin headstock.  Changed to Grover tuners ad a Leo Quan Badass tailpiece that helped a little.  Played an early '70's SG Standard that I really wanted to buy, but couldn't get past that heel thing on the headstock. 
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on August 09, 2008, 01:55:47 AM
I have a '68 SG Special, it has a bigger heel at the body, but still has the thin headstock.  Changed to Grover tuners ad a Leo Quan Badass tailpiece that helped a little.  Played an early '70's SG Standard that I really wanted to buy, but couldn't get past that heel thing on the headstock. 

Ah! There are the "evil" SGs from the very early seventies where they fucked about with the design a little too much. The neck joint was thickened to the point where the strings hovered about an inch off the body and were horrible to play; about 1972 they moderated it a little and brought out the sensible models like Ron has posted. Finally, in the eighties they went full circle back to the sixties style.

My SG standard was roughly a '68 style guitar - ie with the big scratchplate that the pickups mount to, and it had the strengthened heel which served no purpose - if you rout a pickup cavity that close to the cutaways, it doesn't matter a fig about the heel, it'll still break easy enough.

The best SG I ever played was a Gordon Smith made guitar; handmade in the UK but for less than ?400. The neck joint wasn't quite as exposed as a classic '61 style SG but better than a seventies version.

Many of the best vintage SGs to be had are Juniors - where there is no neck pickup cavity, they are nice and strong.

Be objective though - I have three pals who all own Gibson junior/special type guitars (SGs and Les Pauls) with the wrap around "stop" bridge. All of them upgraded to a Badass to improve intonation. Over the years, one by one, they have all put the original bridge back on and found just how much tone and "zing" they have recovered!!!
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on August 09, 2008, 02:10:13 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/1EacQEhrbBQ&hl=en&fs=1

Here's Quicksilver from 1971 (not 1972; that's the movie release date).

Gary Duncan is toting the simpler of the two batwing SGs; shame Dino Valente was a folkie strummer as his cherry Gibson ES-355 is to die for!!
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Ron S on August 09, 2008, 03:41:13 AM
John showed me a SG in progress. This must have been around 1976 or 77. I don't know if he ever finished it.

I have never had tuning problems with any of my SGs. The Special has been a a dependable stage instrument. It went out on the Career Tour. Both Penny and myself used it. The Juniors are heard on a lot of recordings done here.

Don't forget, Townshend used a Special for at least five years, until he couldn't find anymore... I have only seen one bit of film where he was having tuning problems. Sounded great when I saw him in 68, 69, and 71. You have to take the Maestro Vibrola off for best results.

You are right about the 1970 - 1972 vintage Gibsons. Avoid. The 73 I have feels right to me. If you check, you will see they made some cheap, ugly crap for a while.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on August 09, 2008, 02:17:22 PM
John showed me a SG in progress. This must have been around 1976 or 77. I don't know if he ever finished it.

I have never had tuning problems with any of my SGs. The Special has been a a dependable stage instrument. It went out on the Career Tour. Both Penny and myself used it. The Juniors are heard on a lot of recordings done here.

Don't forget, Townshend used a Special for at least five years, until he couldn't find anymore... I have only seen one bit of film where he was having tuning problems. Sounded great when I saw him in 68, 69, and 71. You have to take the Maestro Vibrola off for best results.

You are right about the 1970 - 1972 vintage Gibsons. Avoid. The 73 I have feels right to me. If you check, you will see they made some cheap, ugly crap for a while.

Yes they did! There was a phase where everything had the controls on a plate on the front of the guitar (those best avoided SGs had this) which was really nasty - remember the cut price 335 (the ES-325) that was built like it?

Then there was the Crest - like a really expensive thinline 355 built to luxury spec - but with the neck so far into the body that you could just about play at the octave!

As for what they did to Epiphone around this time - that was really sad. Here was the start of Epi becoming a cheap import brandname rather than the eminent American line they once were. Some of the modern import Epis are really nice (I have a Dot 335), but the early attempts at making them a budget brand were appalling, particularly in the wake of such 60s USA-made classics as the (Beatles) Casino and the upmarket Sheraton.

But then again - Fender were almost as bad at the time. They have a value now, but up until a few years back you wouldn't go near a "three bolt" Strat if you could help it. And the current crop of guitar bands LOVE those Tele deluxes with two humbuckers and a strat neck. That ain't a tele!
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Ron S on August 09, 2008, 04:49:28 PM
I have a 1981 Epiphone Casino. This is a year that many thinline epi's were made in Japan. It's a very nice guitar, with a similar feel to a 60's vintage. I understand some of these were imported to the US at the time. I wasn't paying much attention in the early 80's
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Martin Daughton on August 09, 2008, 06:17:59 PM
Quote
Interestingly Cippo always maintained his SG was a 1959. Clearly a mistake as they didn't make them until 1961.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Frank Marino almost exclusively played a 1961 SG; something about the specific wood...
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on August 09, 2008, 06:51:10 PM
http://www.everythingsg.com/celebrities.htm

They're all here - Micky, Deke, Cipollina, Ollie Halsall, George Harrison....
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Mark Davies on August 09, 2008, 09:29:44 PM
;D whats lassy format, ah i remember the days when one just dropped a needle on black plastic!
 ::) cheers
tony

Mp3 is a lossy format. In order to compress the music data into mp3 format, during the encoding process it throws data away. How much depends on the bit rate that you choose to encode to mp3 at. In any case, when you convert back from mp3 to wav, the data in the resulting file is different, and poorer quality.

Lossless formats (flac, shn, ape etc) compress the music data, but do not throw any information away. You can convert the compressed music file back to a wav file, and it will be identical to how it used to be. Codecs (software plug ins) are available to play these compressed files directly in music players e.g. dbPowerAmp, Winamp and even Windows Media Player (mostly). Flac is by far and away the most common on Dime.

Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Tony Smith on August 09, 2008, 09:42:02 PM
Thanks mark, Gav has now informed me that he has captured it on cd , so a copy is now winging its way to me .. now im excited  ;D
cheers
tony
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: ACE on August 10, 2008, 05:53:42 AM
hi there
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: ACE on August 10, 2008, 05:56:41 AM
i m new to the MAN forum....interesting place here and many informations...glad to be here
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Tony Smith on August 10, 2008, 08:27:38 AM
 welcome Ace , enjoy !
cheers
tony  ;D
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: ACE on August 10, 2008, 09:38:10 AM
thank you very much, Tony

a lot to read here and other nice stuff....love this wonderful place already 8)
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: mikes on August 10, 2008, 04:38:38 PM
@ Rob: The Gordon Smith SG - what a fantastic guitar! The guitarist in my last band played one. Weighing slightly more than the original, I thought ...
Being a poor guitarist, I play a tele  ;D

@Ron: You mentioned the Electric Guitarslinger video on Cipollina that was sold out. Do you know why it takes Steve Keyser so long to get the Recoil dvd ready?
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault - Video
Post by: Ron Fronberg on August 10, 2008, 06:38:37 PM
Back to Man

Now only if the video was available.  I was at this show.  As well as the audio, the concerts were also "filmed".   

Back in the 90's I was set to go and watch the recording of Man from the night that Peter Frampton closed for Man, but things fell through and it never happened.  That would have been fun.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Martin Daughton on August 10, 2008, 08:47:18 PM
Quote
Being a poor guitarist, I play a tele 
All the guitarists I know say a Gibson neck is easier to play than a Fender so you must be better than you think o humble one...
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: John Bannon on August 10, 2008, 09:08:10 PM
Martin, Don't put yourself down, you managed to get my EKO twelve string in tune after many years of abuse by myself, was surprised by your dexterity up and down it's fretboard. John B.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Martin Daughton on August 10, 2008, 09:51:08 PM
Hi John
Kind of you to say so  :-[
However, I wasn't puting myself down - I was bigging up Rob t'Organ...

Now I'll go and dig out my Ovation Legend. Now that has a fast neck.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Ron S on August 10, 2008, 09:55:28 PM
It was broadcast on cable. I saw it played between bands at a later Winterland gig too.

Back to Man

Now only if the video was available.  I was at this show.  As well as the audio, the concerts were also "filmed".   

Back in the 90's I was set to go and watch the recording of Man from the night that Peter Frampton closed for Man, but things fell through and it never happened.  That would have been fun.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: njpaul on August 12, 2008, 02:45:23 AM
Rob,

 Actually half of the "studio" side of Anthem is live.  I believe Crypicial Envelopement, Quadlibet for Tenderfeet, The Faster We Go the Rounder We Get and Born Cross-Eyed all contain live segments.  I won't listen to Anthem for years, and then it winds up on my turntable for a couple of weks.  Happy Trails is like that too, however I did buy it on CD.

I think we seriously jumped somebody's thread.  Sorry.

Ron S.,

 What are the chances of the video ever surfacing?  On the East Coast,  I missed my only chance to see Man in the '70's
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Ron S on August 12, 2008, 05:31:47 AM
Rob,

 Actually half of the "studio" side of Anthem is live.  I believe Crypicial Envelopement, Quadlibet for Tenderfeet, The Faster We Go the Rounder We Get and Born Cross-Eyed all contain live segments.  I won't listen to Anthem for years, and then it winds up on my turntable for a couple of weks.  Happy Trails is like that too, however I did buy it on CD.

I think we seriously jumped somebody's thread.  Sorry.

Ron S.,

 What are the chances of the video ever surfacing?  On the East Coast,  I missed my only chance to see Man in the '70's

I recently found an original copy of Anthem. The later version and all the CDs are the remix. It was at the thrift shop for the princely sum of $5. A steal. The remix of this and Aoxomoxa didn't do the music any favors. Purple lp cover might equal original mix. White cover is surely a remix. Along with the original mix of the first Neil Young lp, these were items that I was lucky to find along the way. I don't know why I considered the Anthem remix the rarity at the time. I guess I thought they might have made it better.

The vid of Man at Winterland must be in the WG Vault, along with all the rest. I got no pull there. It would be up to Esoteric to ask. It's a single camera b/w, but good fun. I suspect there could be vids from all the Winterland shows. I only saw one, which was with Ken.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Gavin Crumpton on August 12, 2008, 10:14:21 AM

Rob,


The vid of Man at Winterland must be in the WG Vault, along with all the rest. I got no pull there. It would be up to Esoteric to ask. It's a single camera b/w, but good fun. I suspect there could be vids from all the Winterland shows. I only saw one, which was with Ken.

There is, or at least used to be a link on the WV website for licensing enquiries, we enquired about licensing the Winterland footage for GWP vol2 but got no reply. But theoretically it should be possible to license this footage if it is still in the vault which it probably is.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: elwyatt on August 16, 2008, 03:16:56 AM
It's good to see Man concerts finally making onto Wolfgang's Vault, they have lot's of nice Man posters.....if you can afford their prices.
Can I be the first to say, I'm not overly impressed with the Jam with John Cippolina, may have had his day by 1975, especially when you hear reports of Micky overdubbing bits of Maximum Darkness in 1974. Don't get me wrong love his work with QSMS in the late 60's and early 70's and that should be respected. Lets not look through rose tinted glasses though.
Brings me onto another subject, maybe this should be under other bands, people have been putting up favourite music to listen to, The Grateful Dead being very prominent in this section, Is it me, I have a mate that every other day put's yet another CD through the letterbox ordering me to listen to yet another release by them, I've been forced to listen to everything barring farts and burps by this group and I still can't take to them, certain live bits of Dark Star are OK but the rest, it's very hard to bear. I took a lot of acid in my youth, but no amount of drugs would induce me to like that American folk/country pap, crap and any other word that rhymes, very middle of the road music they churned out. You wouldn't even hear this music in a Califorinian lift/elevator, would just bore too many people to death. Anybody that pretends to like this music and you must be pretending, can I remind you the Freak Train left town years ago and you should have been on it...
I know One Man's beef is another Man's poison and music is in the ear of the beholder.But let's be real!
Hopefully this will stir up a little bit of a debate, the forum's gone a little bit quite of late.

   OK, so John B. doesn't like the Dead, or appreciate the enthusiasm of his buddy. Boo Hoo!  I ran into someone a while back who wished "they were all Dead", he disliked them so. I was blown away by his vehemence.  I have to admit I don't quite get it, having spent a significant portion of my listening time on them, and enjoying their music, both studio, live and audience recorded. Sure, they weren't always at their best, but that made me appreciate their great moments more. Sort of like Man's music. I have, I think, every recorded moment of Man, and its offshoots, that are  out there, and like almost all of it enough to hear it through, no matter which song (and I'll let him pick.)  Only a small bit, maybe 10%, reaches the quality level I'd want to present to anyone unfamiliar with the band. But I'm still listening because even the lesser bits inform my appreciation of the really good stuff.   Sorry you don't like the Dead, John, I think you've really missed a good trip, er, ride.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob W on August 16, 2008, 05:00:16 PM
You know, not only do I not get Grateful Dead, or most of Zappa, but dare I say it, I think QMS are not much good either. In fact, I see more of Man in Nektar.
So there.....  :)
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Martin Daughton on August 16, 2008, 05:17:40 PM
I never really got the West Coast scene either. I always preferred the heavier end of the British psych scene at that time.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on August 18, 2008, 10:06:12 PM
You know, not only do I not get Grateful Dead, or most of Zappa, but dare I say it, I think QMS are not much good either. In fact, I see more of Man in Nektar.
So there.....  :)

There is much San Francisco in the Man Band, but not the obvious bits!

The Steve Miller Bands' first handful of albums is where you'll find the Man reference points, not QMS. Yes, if you're a guitarist you can play QMS "Happy Trails" and spot the lick Micky has copped (much as you can playing the solo from Zappa's "Willie the Pimp") but for the overall sound, the Miller early output is a lot more telling. Mr Ace stayed with me after Herne Hill recently and, seeing my vinyl collection, asked for some of the early Steve Miller stuff for old times sake. If you have the "Revolution" soundtrack album (which given that QMS contributed "Babe.." and "Codeine" to this set rather than their own first LP must have been almost welded to the turntable back in Tierney Road) you'll find all sorts of Man titbits - particularly the ending of SMB "Your Old Lady" which, not mincing words, is SO close to what became the Spunk Rock ending that Martin's eyes popped out and he put his hand to his mouth in an "umm..." gesture!

QMS were almost certainly a great live act rather than an recording band (any guitar-improvisation-based act share that trait to a certain extent), with some exceptions - the debut is majestic, Happy Trails is mostly live anyway, and bits of Shady Grove are worth a listen. Deke's take on Dino Valenti/e is spot on - ruined the band with his whining and other than a few bits of Chippo on the two albums he stayed around for after Dino joined, the rest is dross. Gary Duncan is a lovely guitarist and a perfect foil for Chippo (his solid style complemented Chippo's Bigsby-waggling antics beautifully) but the time had passed for QMS, and the relegation of Freiberg to bassist/backing vocals was the last nail in their coffin.

I love the Grateful Dead an awful lot but totally understand why some people don't. It's a Marmite thing again. But I truly do have sympathy for those that don't like them, mainly because I detest Steely Dan and nobody will buy that one at all. "Oh, you haven't heard the right stuff" they say. Actually, I've heard most of it and they only give up persisting when I say "Well, the first album isn't so bad - when they were a band rather than two tossers' egos and some hired help". So I have all the time in the world for those that can't find room for the Dead in their lives, providing a fair chance has been given.

But this is where I beg to differ - I am desperately TRYING to like Nektar at the moment but can't quite get it yet. I think it is the too-English-for-me lyrics that do it, which is why I went off Yes/Genesis/anything by Peter Sinfield etc quicker than Granada TV went off Peter Adamson. I think Roye Albrighton is a f**king brilliant guitarist, but have downloaded a few albums (thanks to Allan H and others for the tips) and can't quite find a song to cling onto. Certainly, there are moments of '69-'71 Man on the albums though, to be sure. It's all a bit too splashy and spacey for me with no good rockers to temper it.

I think this discussion might have revealed the true beauty of the Man Band - spacey as fuck when they wanted to be, but knew when to call it a day and throw in a Daughter of the Fireplace that people could stomp too, for good measure. Very few bands - US or UK - had that facility up their sleeve.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Michael Heatley on August 18, 2008, 11:17:09 PM
Your last sentence is so right.

My belief is that while Man have had three world class musicians in their ranks - Jones, Williams, Ryan - they've also had Leonard, the man who slung in a bit of grit to make the pearl.
 
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on August 19, 2008, 12:59:49 AM
Your last sentence is so right.

My belief is that while Man have had three world class musicians in their ranks - Jones, Williams, Ryan - they've also had Leonard, the man who slung in a bit of grit to make the pearl.
 


Exactly. Much as Dylan roughed up the Wilburys.

Not to underestimate Clint and Ace who fall somewhere in between - Clint played some very tidy Hammond that I have taken much influence from, particularly the superb little break in "Brother Arnolds.." and was also the other essential ingredient of the times - the catalyst, mover, shaker, whatever. When Phil called round to borrow the Leslie recently, he was saying how he loved Clint's style and the original "Iorwerth Pritchard" blueprint that became Man #6 was to have featured Clint on organ while Phil played pianos and synths. Now that would have been interesting.

Ace: the raconteur, the showman and never ever diss the one note shuffle - it takes a bassist with taste and restraint to groove on one note. Ace excels; Will nearly matches him. Ray Williams deceptively melodic. Ken was a different kettle of fish altogether (think Casady; Lesh) and John McKenzie really should also be added to the above list of master musicians. But is a Crusaders-standard bassist what's needed in Man? No.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Mike Cross on August 19, 2008, 01:19:58 AM

Ace: the raconteur, the showman and never ever diss the one note shuffle - it takes a bassist with taste and restraint to groove on one note. Ace excels; Will nearly matches him. Ray Williams deceptively melodic. Ken was a different kettle of fish altogether (think Casady; Lesh) and John McKenzie really should also be added to the above list of master musicians. But is a Crusaders-standard bassist what's needed in Man? No.

Here's what Micky & Terry had to say about bass players in 1975:

Quote

Since the end of that tour, four months ago, Man have done nothing. The bassist on those gigs, Martin Ace, has left as was planned from the time he flew out to California to replace Ken Whaley, who suddenly quit.

Now Martin has returned to his own projects with George, his wife, and Man are looking for a new bassist. They have a month to six weeks to rehearse - longer than they've ever had - to "get tight". Then they'll start filling out the date sheet.

In the four month layoff Man have been writing a few tunes. Micky is moving into a Gloucestershire cottage and Terry Williams, in a fit of temper, kicked in a glass door severing nerves and main artery in his left foot and losing part of a toe. "It was that or hit someone who might've hit me harder." So the time off hasn't been uneventful.

"It's really strange. After working solidly for four years and suddenly stopping. For quite a long time you don't know what to do with yourself. Play guitar, watch TV," says Jones. Man aren't advertising for a new bass player. They're depending on word of mouth.

A short list has been drawn up. "I imagine we'll have to do it by pin, like the old women do with the horses in the paper."

What they don't want is another stereotyped Man bassist. "We wanna get away from 'chunk-chunka-chinka-chunka-chunk'," says Terry.

"We need some new blood," says Micky, "to get me off, get everybody else off, so we need a bass player who's totally different from anybody who's been in the band before. 'Sfunny really, all the bass players that've come into the band you get the impression that they think they've naturally got to do what's been played before. We need a more melodic bass player."

"I know it's one chord," adds Terry, "and there's not much you can do on one chord, but you can lilt it instead of charging around on one note."

In Ken Whaley they had a bassist who was, by nature, a melodicist yet he subjugated that to the Man Sound. "We've suddenly realised that we've got a style. Lot's of people have said that we lack direction but I've realised that we've got a style, a typical Man thing. Now I've realised it, I don't want it," decides Jones. "Anybody who's got a style and they stick to that style it's gonna limit them. John has got a style. He's got a particular style and he's stuck in it. It stopped his musical progression as it would anyone who's got a distinctive musical thing and they play on it all the time. It's like having one religion. You stick to one religion. You're not taking in anything else."

"We want a bass player who plays like Paul McCartney, with a bit of Jack Bruce who can also sound like Jack Casady and whiff off like Phil Lesh," grins Terry.

Melody Maker 4/10/75
Reproduced in The Welsh Connection, Oct/Nov, 2005

Full article online at http://www.michaelcross.me.uk/jc/mm75-mod.htm
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Ron S on August 19, 2008, 04:49:47 AM
I'd go with the Miller connection too. When I did CDTM, I took a compilation cassette with Miller and QMS and a few other things. It was on the hifi in the van when I picked them up at the airport. About 10 seconds into Song For Our Ancestors, they all said, turn it up. And of course when I had Uno plug the piano into the leslie, Deke hit one note and said "ah, Steve Miller".

QMS were a more rock band than the albums show. A listen to some early bootlegs show a fair number of heavier tunes than appeared on the albums. I would strongly disagree with Rob W concerning QMS. The first three albums are all fantastic. A perfect blend of those four guys...

Miller band were pretty amazing too. Really tight, something Steve was quick to point out was lacking with the competition. I forgot about that ending on Your Old Lady. What a great song... It was a stand out of the set I saw them play in 1968.

The thing that makes Man different from any other SF band, was there strong roots in full on American Rock and Roll. I'm sure all those bands liked Elvis too, but it's not something too many would admit. It was a lot of folkies in those bands, and a few jazz guys. And then Cipollina with his Link Wray obsession. Guy like Miller were pretty serious blues players, and his back ground goes back to Les Paul.

You know, not only do I not get Grateful Dead, or most of Zappa, but dare I say it, I think QMS are not much good either. In fact, I see more of Man in Nektar.
So there.....  :)

There is much San Francisco in the Man Band, but not the obvious bits!

The Steve Miller Bands' first handful of albums is where you'll find the Man reference points, not QMS. Yes, if you're a guitarist you can play QMS "Happy Trails" and spot the lick Micky has copped (much as you can playing the solo from Zappa's "Willie the Pimp") but for the overall sound, the Miller early output is a lot more telling. Mr Ace stayed with me after Herne Hill recently and, seeing my vinyl collection, asked for some of the early Steve Miller stuff for old times sake. If you have the "Revolution" soundtrack album (which given that QMS contributed "Babe.." and "Codeine" to this set rather than their own first LP must have been almost welded to the turntable back in Tierney Road) you'll find all sorts of Man titbits - particularly the ending of SMB "Your Old Lady" which, not mincing words, is SO close to what became the Spunk Rock ending that Martin's eyes popped out and he put his hand to his mouth in an "umm..." gesture!

QMS were almost certainly a great live act rather than an recording band (any guitar-improvisation-based act share that trait to a certain extent), with some exceptions - the debut is majestic, Happy Trails is mostly live anyway, and bits of Shady Grove are worth a listen. Deke's take on Dino Valenti/e is spot on - ruined the band with his whining and other than a few bits of Chippo on the two albums he stayed around for after Dino joined, the rest is dross. Gary Duncan is a lovely guitarist and a perfect foil for Chippo (his solid style complemented Chippo's Bigsby-waggling antics beautifully) but the time had passed for QMS, and the relegation of Freiberg to bassist/backing vocals was the last nail in their coffin.

I love the Grateful Dead an awful lot but totally understand why some people don't. It's a Marmite thing again. But I truly do have sympathy for those that don't like them, mainly because I detest Steely Dan and nobody will buy that one at all. "Oh, you haven't heard the right stuff" they say. Actually, I've heard most of it and they only give up persisting when I say "Well, the first album isn't so bad - when they were a band rather than two tossers' egos and some hired help". So I have all the time in the world for those that can't find room for the Dead in their lives, providing a fair chance has been given.

But this is where I beg to differ - I am desperately TRYING to like Nektar at the moment but can't quite get it yet. I think it is the too-English-for-me lyrics that do it, which is why I went off Yes/Genesis/anything by Peter Sinfield etc quicker than Granada TV went off Peter Adamson. I think Roye Albrighton is a f**king brilliant guitarist, but have downloaded a few albums (thanks to Allan H and others for the tips) and can't quite find a song to cling onto. Certainly, there are moments of '69-'71 Man on the albums though, to be sure. It's all a bit too splashy and spacey for me with no good rockers to temper it.

I think this discussion might have revealed the true beauty of the Man Band - spacey as fuck when they wanted to be, but knew when to call it a day and throw in a Daughter of the Fireplace that people could stomp too, for good measure. Very few bands - US or UK - had that facility up their sleeve.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Allan Heron on August 19, 2008, 10:54:53 AM
You know, not only do I not get Grateful Dead, or most of Zappa, but dare I say it, I think QMS are not much good either. In fact, I see more of Man in Nektar.
So there.....  :)

Not a problem with that - it's odd that there seems to be an expectation (reasonably widely held) that if you like Band A then you must like Band B, Band C etc etc.   But there's no earthly reason why you should actually like them.  I like loads of things that I'm certain would be greeted with a thumbs down by others on here, and loads that would get the opposite reaction.  (Let's try that out - been listening to Bruce Hornsby recently who's been on an excellent run on his albums put out in his own name i.e. not the Bruce Hornsby And The Range albums.  His boxset is a terrific collection.  My gut reaction is a thumbs down on this one so let's see if there's any reaction)

Having said that, I think you're right to say that you hear some Man in Nektar, but it's QMS, Miller, Zappa etc that you hear in Man which is a different perspective.   Still no reason for you to have to like them though 

I believe the band, or perhaps just Martin, were fond of Mad River.  Read an interesting article on them in Shindig recently.   Worth exploring as I see their two albums are available as a twofer.    Also, what's the score with the CJ and the Fish albums?   Would it be fair to say "Electric Music....." is a must, but the other two less so?
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: William Rait on August 19, 2008, 05:59:37 PM

Not a problem with that - it's odd that there seems to be an expectation (reasonably widely held) that if you like Band A then you must like Band B, Band C etc etc.   But there's no earthly reason why you should actually like them.  I like loads of things that I'm certain would be greeted with a thumbs down by others on here, and loads that would get the opposite reaction.  (Let's try that out - been listening to Bruce Hornsby recently who's been on an excellent run on his albums put out in his own name i.e. not the Bruce Hornsby And The Range albums.  His boxset is a terrific collection.  My gut reaction is a thumbs down on this one so let's see if there's any reaction)

Totally agree with you on this one.Also it also seems to be that bands that once you liked @ 19 or 20 don't work for you now seem dated etc but again there is a widely held view that once you like a band that's it forever!
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on August 19, 2008, 10:58:04 PM
You know, not only do I not get Grateful Dead, or most of Zappa, but dare I say it, I think QMS are not much good either. In fact, I see more of Man in Nektar.
So there.....  :)

 

I believe the band, or perhaps just Martin, were fond of Mad River.  Read an interesting article on them in Shindig recently.   Worth exploring as I see their two albums are available as a twofer.    Also, what's the score with the CJ and the Fish albums?   Would it be fair to say "Electric Music....." is a must, but the other two less so?

Allan,

I had the Mad River LPs at one point about 10 years ago (remember the "Edsel" label?) but didn't take to them as readily as I expected. The first one is pure acid rock whereas the second is a bit more laid back and countrified. I might get the twofer as I'd probably like them now!!

You are pretty much spot-on with your analysis about CJ&F - another act I bought most of the LPs of but sold them on fairly quickly: Debut is great as you say; second LP has moments but shows the expected downturn in quality creeping in. "Together" if I remember rightly has about two songs worth hearing (one of which is "Rock & Soul Music" that was featured on the Woodstock film) and then "C J Fish" and "Here We Go Again" largely forgettable, with the exception of Barry Melton's "Love Machine"  - but even that is better represented on a live version on the "Haight Ashbury to Woodstock" 2LP retrospective.

You might be interested in the excellent Moby Grape reissues that have surfaced from Sundazed - I bought Moby Grape 69 and Truly Fine Citizen recently and they've done a lovely job. Clint has often spoken about his love for that band, and I am sure that a little bit of Jerry Miller - a stunning guitarist - must have come into the style of Micky somewhere!!

If that's not enough Frisco for anybody - try The Sons of Champlin "Loosen Up Naturally" and Sopwith Camel's "Miraculous Hump Returns from the Moon"!

Regarding QMS versus Man - I think that anybody expecting a band churning out meandering riff-fests like "Many Are Called.." but with some US-of-A authenticity were bound to be disappointed by what was, essentially, a Frisco blues band with a few twists. The influence on our boys was, by and large, that of a lead guitarist and a lead singer rather than the band's overall style and feel. Yet it is also fair to say that where QMS differed from the rest of their scene was that, Freiberg aside, the band were all rock and rollers rather than folkies that went electric, which is certainly not true of Jefferson Airplane, say: Kantner was a folk club man, Jorma & Jack came from the country blues scene that they reverted to in Hot Tuna, Marty Balin was a balladeer. Cippolina, Elmore & Duncan were fully fledged lead guitarists from garage-y R&B bands, and Freiberg - the folk clubber of the pack - valiantly took up the bass guitar, ridding them of any folkie "strummer" influences.

Steve Miller was probably the best electric blues player of the acid rock scene. Mike Bloomfield aside, the white guitarists of that type tended to be Londoners! One honorable exception is the criminally under-rated Zal Yanovsky (Lovin' Spoonful) who remains a favourite guitarist. His work on "Night Owl Blues" is easily up to the standard of Clapton/Green brit stuff. Largely forgotten now, but a lovely guitarist in the same way as George Harrison: always unselfish.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Dai Port Talbot on September 16, 2008, 11:44:08 PM
Very true - a mate and I both love Frank Zappa. The difference being that (while I can dig it a little weirder than Hot Rats) I know when to call it a day, but my mate reckons that Lumpy Gravy is the best album ever made. Figure that!

Oy! I do lurk here, you know.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on September 17, 2008, 01:44:05 AM
Very true - a mate and I both love Frank Zappa. The difference being that (while I can dig it a little weirder than Hot Rats) I know when to call it a day, but my mate reckons that Lumpy Gravy is the best album ever made. Figure that!

Oy! I do lurk here, you know.

Full marks for owning up but you know my opinion on Lumpy Gravy. Even I - who actually likes all of Man (1970) and if pressed can sing every note of H Samuel from memory - find it tiresome.

I tried Amon Duul II on the wife the other night and it was not a success.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Martin Daughton on September 17, 2008, 11:20:48 AM
I tried Amon Duul II on the wife the other night and it was not a success.

Aaah! Side 2 of "Carnival In Babylon". That's my comfort music...
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on September 17, 2008, 07:39:27 PM
I tried Amon Duul II on the wife the other night and it was not a success.

Aaah! Side 2 of "Carnival In Babylon". That's my comfort music...

Yeti and Dance of the Lemmings are the offending pieces in my collection. Soap Shop Rock and Eye Shaking King were not greeted warmly. As for "Pull down your mask, wolf in zer sheepskin"...well!
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Davey on December 11, 2008, 05:38:17 AM
thank you .that was beautiful...umm i love jerry garcia.there i said it,i like st. stephen on the you tube playboy after dark tv show and the backstory ,europe 72 video footage ramble on rose for example,and when they had a concert at the top of haight st.in the st. in 66 or 67 among other moments,well i wouldn't mind to have seen man on the same bill with the dead that would be fun with a jam too why not?...-peace 
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Davey on December 17, 2008, 04:20:47 AM
...."hard way to die"is a great track live,thanks again for this concert(stellar concert) 'bout to listen again      :'(  :-*  :-\  :-X  :-[  :P  ::)  ???  8)   :o  :(  >:(  ;D  :D  ;)  :) ..."here comes sunshine"-grateful dead(from wake of the flood):that one track;by itself;in it's own right;is a beautiful track from top to bottom,front to back,straight up...and to me this is beautiful:there are moments in "born with a future"(from the roundhouse movie) where both micky jones and deke leonard play stuff on the guitar that reminds me of the dead(in a good way).they were both drawing from the same wellspring of music of those times in some regard...ok peace for now 
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Clifton Jones on December 19, 2008, 10:51:13 AM
Man live are generally better than Man in the studio. The same is true but more so with the Grateful Dead. Don't bother with the studion albums, go to the live music archive: http://www.archive.org/details/GratefulDead (or for all bands: http://www.archive.org/browse.php?collection=etree&field=%2Fmetadata%2Fcreator) or check our the Dick's Picks Series (36 volumes), The new Road trips series, the download series or the vault series all accessible from ww.dead.net.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Nick Nation on December 19, 2008, 11:57:34 AM
check our the Dick's Picks Series (36 volumes)

I'd love to have all volumes up to the point that Garcia started to 'slow right down' but being a penniless musician I've had to settle for one.  In fact I've got DP1 which is quite a good place to start as it features far better versions of songs from Wake Of The Flood, including a fabulous version of 'Here Comes Sunshine' to which Davey refers, as a 5 piece (Donna was giving birth, Mickey Hart elsewhere) which to me improved things no end!

 


Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on December 19, 2008, 03:35:48 PM
check our the Dick's Picks Series (36 volumes)
In fact I've got DP1 which is quite a good place to start as it features far better versions of songs from Wake Of The Flood, including a fabulous version of 'Here Comes Sunshine' to which Davey refers, as a 5 piece (Donna was giving birth, Mickey Hart elsewhere) which to me improved things no end!

Ah! Do I detect at long last that I'm not the only Deadhead that found Donna to add absolutely nothing to the band and Mickey to always be at best a dispensible luxury, possibly over-ambitious clutter?

Don't bother with the studion albums, go to the live music archive:

That's a little simplistic, Clifton! (But I know what you mean!!). Even so, if a Dead novice were to stumble upon this article I think it's fair to say that 69-75 studio stuff is worth a punt for the casual listener too. I never tire of Workingman's Dead and American Beauty, to name but two for fear that this will become yet another thread that has Nick & I endlessly waxing over China Cat Sunflower.....!
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Nick Nation on December 19, 2008, 05:43:33 PM

...I wish to keep it brief for fear that this will become yet another thread that has Nick & I endlessly waxing over China Cat Sunflower.....!).


Yo! Ready! Welcome to the Rob & Nick Show!

You start this time, Rob.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: William Rait on December 19, 2008, 05:52:13 PM
As a casual listener to The 'Dead I would like to say that Axomoxoa , Anthem for the Sun,WMD & American Beauty were all albums that I once possed and would actually love to revisit again . I wonder if, after the passing of (sadly many) years and listening in a  clear brained state, I would still find them appealing. What do you lads think?
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Nick Nation on December 19, 2008, 06:07:11 PM
I wonder if, after the passing of (sadly many) years and listening in a  clear brained state, I would still find them appealing. What do you lads think?

I would say the latter pair would still qualify under your new conditions, Bill! Rob?
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Allan Heron on December 19, 2008, 06:45:13 PM
I've filled out to completion my collection of Dead "official" CD's over the past six months.   Some great stuff on there and never less than interesting.   Some bizarre moments along the way - Shakedown Street, for example, which I find quite amusing although I am sure they were all deadly (sic) serious about it at the time.

Also picked up the Fillmore 69 set (which I think makes much more sense than Live/Dead) and the movie soundtrack set, as well as the Garcia box All Good Things and Bob Weir's ACE

Lots more to go
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Nick Nation on December 19, 2008, 06:55:57 PM
....Bob Weir's ACE


This is one of my favourite Dead LPs - for a start they're the backing band and all the material strong enough to seemlessly fit into the Dead's live set as and when.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on December 19, 2008, 07:21:14 PM

...I wish to keep it brief for fear that this will become yet another thread that has Nick & I endlessly waxing over China Cat Sunflower.....!).


Yo! Ready! Welcome to the Rob & Nick Show!

You start this time, Rob.

Looks like we're all singing from the same hymn book - Dead studio stuff great from early days if you like acid-Frisco, then some beautiful song-based albums (like everybody else who heard The Band and sh*t their trousers) around '70 and also a handful of classic solo LPs around 71-72 as well as a myriad of single (Bear's Choice); double (Live Dead; 1971 "Skull & Roses") and triple (Europe 72) live offerings.

ACE is all but a Dead album, yes, and a very good one. Garcia's first album is another favourite - more "solo" tunes that ended up into the parent act's set (Deal, Sugaree) but also some beautiful experimental music (Spidergawd, Eep Hour, Late for Supper etc) that many will remember used as the opening sequence on the GD movie. When you combine the two mentioned LPs together you can't help but salivate over what a timely bona fide Dead studio follow up to American Beauty might have been like - but we got two LPs instead so no matter!

Nick, what was the opening cut of side 2 of Aoxomoxoa called? I quite liked that.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: mikes on December 19, 2008, 07:29:18 PM
Should be "Mountains of the Moon". Sorry to interrupt ...  :-X
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Nick Nation on December 19, 2008, 07:33:35 PM
Should be "Mountains of the Moon". Sorry to interrupt ...  :-X

...quite alright, Mikes. (How many of you is there, by the way?) However, I think Rob was actually alluding to dripping a silver kimono like a crazy-quilt star gown. Bit cold for that sort of thing, I would have thought.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on December 19, 2008, 07:43:15 PM
Should be "Mountains of the Moon". Sorry to interrupt ...  :-X

...quite alright, Mikes. (How many of you is there, by the way?) However, I think Rob was actually alluding to dripping a silver kimono like a crazy-quilt star gown. Bit cold for that sort of thing, I would have thought.


There was indeed a whiff of one-eyed Cheshire about the intended response.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Campbell on December 19, 2008, 10:00:41 PM
I actually love the Shakedown St album by the Dead,I havent heard it for a few years but recall playing it all the time a few years back
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on December 19, 2008, 11:46:29 PM
Are we all agreed that "Go To Heaven" is the WORST thing the Dead ever did?
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Nick Nation on December 20, 2008, 12:19:07 AM
Are we all agreed that "Go To Heaven" is the WORST thing the Dead ever did?

How about the Kieth And Donna album? Yeah, 'Go To Heaven' was pretty dire, as were the ones that followed. Mr Campbell mentions 'Shakedown Street' - for me it had its moments but didn't live up to the promise of having Lowell George at the helm (who took an instant dislike to the tinkerings of Mickey Hart) and a sleeve by Gilbert Shelton of Fabulous Furry Freak Bros fame. Also.....the bottom end had gone......I think the last studio LP that I thought was the business was 'Blues For Allah'.



   
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on December 20, 2008, 01:30:14 AM
Are we all agreed that "Go To Heaven" is the WORST thing the Dead ever did?

How about the Kieth And Donna album? Yeah, 'Go To Heaven' was pretty dire, as were the ones that followed. Mr Campbell mentions 'Shakedown Street' - for me it had its moments but didn't live up to the promise of having Lowell George at the helm (who took an instant dislike to the tinkerings of Mickey Hart) and a sleeve by Gilbert Shelton of Fabulous Furry Freak Bros fame. Also.....the bottom end had gone......I think the last studio LP that I thought was the business was 'Blues For Allah'.


After your brave honesty here I'll be honest...I think parts of Mars Hotel and Wake of the Flood amount to one decent album. Terrapin Station suite is fun after the pub and a funny roll-up but isn't classic Dead by any means. Agree on Shakedown Street - a lost opportunity, like Go To Heaven. Once Pigpen had gone it all got a bit jazzy for me..never liked Eyes of the World and all that era much. US Blues was about my favourite 73-74 "new tune". Yes, a few bits of Blues For Allah do the business.

I didn't even buy the Keith & Donna album and don't plan to! Keith was a fine pianist on Europe '72 but had Pig on organ to temper his jazzy piano purist ways (he wouldn't even play a Fender Rhodes let alone any organ to vary the sound a bit, hence he got the heave ho) and as for Donna..hmmm. (See also Linda McCartney). Brent Mydland was a far better choice for the Dead but by then there wasn't a great studio LP left in them. Phil Lesh in MOJO recently said that the public didn't realise how little there was left of the band in the last 10 years or so, with Garcia on the wane and not contributing nearly as much fine material for Hunter to lyricise.

But that's the funny thing about being a Deadhead, eh? I still love them to bits, wished I'd seen them and hopefully will if The Dead/Other Ones are talking about doing business again.

But come on Nick, you've now quoted two bits of negative press about Mickey Hart but not come clean as to whether you agree with my opinion that he was OTT window-dressing rather than essential, like a fifth wheel on the wagon...
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Allan Heron on December 20, 2008, 02:58:11 AM
....but didn't live up to the promise of having Lowell George at the helm....   

From what I've read George had next to nothing to so with Terrapin Station cause he was so out of it.   The album was produced despite of him rather than because of him regardless of what the credits stated.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob W on December 20, 2008, 03:29:32 AM
I've filled out to completion my collection of Dead "official" CD's over the past six months.   Also picked up the Fillmore 69 set
Lots more to go

Hey, Allan, that loft of yours must be absolutely humungous in size............ if there's such a word as humungous, and if so, if it's spelt correctly.  Is there room for the rest of your family in the house or do you put them up n a hotel.......or in the shed  :)  :)

   

Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Allan Heron on December 20, 2008, 03:31:24 AM
I've filled out to completion my collection of Dead "official" CD's over the past six months.   Also picked up the Fillmore 69 set
Lots more to go

Hey, Allan, that loft of yours must be absolutely humungous in size............ if there's such a word as humungous, and if so, if it's spelt correctly.  Is there room for the rest of your family in the house or do you put them up n a hotel.......or in the shed  :)  :)

I've laid down the law - it's either the wife or the Dick's Pick series.  Ain't room for both of 'em  :D
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on December 20, 2008, 03:32:13 AM
(With subtle corrective edit to Allan's post  ;)
....but didn't live up to the promise of having Lowell George at the helm....   

From what I've read George had next to nothing to so with Shakedown Street cause he was so out of it.   The album was produced despite of him rather than because of him regardless of what the credits stated.

Whatever the reasons, the logic of having nothing to do with Shakedown Street is impeccable. (Sorry Campbell!)
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on December 20, 2008, 03:52:26 AM
As a casual listener to The 'Dead I would like to say that Axomoxoa , Anthem for the Sun,WMD & American Beauty were all albums that I once possed and would actually love to revisit again . I wonder if, after the passing of (sadly many) years and listening in a  clear brained state, I would still find them appealing. What do you lads think?
I wonder if, after the passing of (sadly many) years and listening in a  clear brained state, I would still find them appealing. What do you lads think?

I would say the latter pair would still qualify under your new conditions, Bill! Rob?

Well, that's a hard one (cue Frankie Howerd looking at the audience and saying "Please yourselves").

I LOVE the early GD output: the debut is unfairly maligned by some but I love it (opener "The Golden Road..." is a desert island track), Anthem of the Sun* is a twisted masterpiece and Aoxomoxoa is both weird beyond all reckoning but showing a little maturity and in stuff like Rosemary, Doin' That Rag and Dupree's Diamond Blues gives a flavour of the two '70 platters. But it could all easily seem a little dated and confused after a few years away from them. Nick is probably right with Workingmans and Beauty as the safest gambits to return to. I'd dig Live Dead, out though...

*1968 is a far more interesting year than 1967, Frisco wise: you got Anthem of the Sun from GD, "After Bathing at Baxters" from JA. Both are off the richter scale in terms of trippiness, both also after fairly "cosy" debut sets. Add to that our beloved QMS debut and Steve Miller's "Sailor" and you get a far more rewarding year than the so-called Summer of Love.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Nick Nation on December 20, 2008, 10:58:46 AM
But come on Nick, you've now quoted two bits of negative press about Mickey Hart but not come clean as to whether you agree with my opinion that he was OTT window-dressing rather than essential, like a fifth wheel on the wagon...

I realise MH is a self-described 'World Drummer' but by the time he rejoined GD they weren't really creating material that suited his undoubted talents. As for his 'hypnotic understanding' with Bill K than I suggest he changes hypnotist and listen to the Allmans Fillmore East. There is nothing very 'Worldly' about two drummers playing 4/4 to a Brent Mydland song. I also think Bill K played with more fire when MH wasn't there (no I don't mean Michael Heatley) and demonstrated more jazzy fills that he might not have done had MH been there paradiddling all over it.

Donna was brought in to replace Phil Lesh's vocals who by that time had knackered his throat singing high lines.

In both cases, they needn't have bothered.

But I could be wrong.

Meanwhile.....I reckon Kingfish's first two LPs are worthy of inclusion.....


Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Michael Heatley on December 20, 2008, 12:35:43 PM
I was beginning to worry there....I may be a sorry excuse for a musican, but a drummer?  :o
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: mikes on December 20, 2008, 03:05:33 PM
 ;D

Strangely enough despite my favour of Aoxamoxoa, American Beauty and Workingman's (and my lack of interest in later GD records) I absolutely LOVE touch of grey - the best song they've ever done.

@ Nick: We mikes use royal plural, you see ...  ;)
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Nick Nation on December 20, 2008, 07:04:34 PM
;D
Nick: We mikes use royal plural, you see ...  ;)

Aha! You are an entity! Greetings to your individual components as well as your overall identity!

I absolutely LOVE touch of grey - the best song they've ever done.


Have to admit this was a groovy little ditty - and I'm not just saying that because there's so many of you. What spoilt it for me was the use of a flippin' Linn Drum used to reinforce the beat in an obvious way. Yep, on top of two drummers.

Hopefully this would have upset the self-appointed World Drummer, so all might not be lost. However....I'm sure that this electronic blasphemy was added at the production stage to make what was obviously a potential hit single easier for the straights to accept.

Hey! I'm really in no mood to take prisoners today! Could be fun!





 
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on December 21, 2008, 12:24:15 AM
But come on Nick, you've now quoted two bits of negative press about Mickey Hart but not come clean as to whether you agree with my opinion that he was OTT window-dressing rather than essential, like a fifth wheel on the wagon...

I realise MH is a self-described 'World Drummer' but by the time he rejoined GD they weren't really creating material that suited his undoubted talents. As for his 'hypnotic understanding' with Bill K than I suggest he changes hypnotist and listen to the Allmans Fillmore East. There is nothing very 'Worldly' about two drummers playing 4/4 to a Brent Mydland song. I also think Bill K played with more fire when MH wasn't there (no I don't mean Michael Heatley) and demonstrated more jazzy fills that he might not have done had MH been there paradiddling all over it.

Donna was brought in to replace Phil Lesh's vocals who by that time had knackered his throat singing high lines.

In both cases, they needn't have bothered.

But I could be wrong.

Meanwhile.....I reckon Kingfish's first two LPs are worthy of inclusion.....


No you're not wrong. Donna should have stayed backstage rolling joints for half-time.

That's it exactly it with Mickey Hart - a solution looking for a problem that wasn't there, and creating the problem that Bill "The Drummer" K (a fine sticksman IMHO) deferred to him way too much when he was in. Allmans did use the format better, as you say, but still I'd go further than that though - did the Allmans need two drummers? Does anybody?

Yeah, Kingfish was good, along with the Garcia-influenced early New Riders stuff. RatDog looks to be a good band, too.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on December 21, 2008, 12:39:41 AM

Hey! I'm really in no mood to take prisoners today! Could be fun!


Okay then, you're on..


Syd Barrett and Skip Spence...


Two troubled geniuses (popular opinion) or two over-rated pain-in-the-arse attention seeking dickheads with little more than a handful of good tunes to contribute before self-destructing? Discuss.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Ron S on December 21, 2008, 01:22:00 AM

Hey! I'm really in no mood to take prisoners today! Could be fun!

Okay then, you're on..


Syd Barrett and Skip Spence...


Two troubled geniuses (popular opinion) or two over-rated pain-in-the-arse attention seeking dickheads with little more than a handful of good tunes to contribute before self-destructing? Discuss.

I saw Skippy Spence play drums for Jefferson Airplane. Amazing. He wrote a few great songs with them, before the did the business with Maybe Grope. Blues From An Airplane and My Best Friend, nothing wrong with those two classics, is there? And Syd, well if it weren't for him, no Pink Floyd. Who cares is they were a bright spark and then burn out... a lot of people who survived, only made one good record, and then tortured us for years afterward with useless stuff.

By the time I saw Moby Grape, Skip was gone, and Bob Moseley wasn't looking that well. Skips solo album has some great moments. I had a pal, who was a great guy, great taste in music, but sadly a taste for the whiskey. Him and Spence used to walk around downtown San Jose, getting outta their minds, often losing the car... I never had the pleasure, but I'm sure it was not fun for anyone else.

I won't join in a game of knocking real talents, due to "personal" problems. All I'm concerned about is the music. Now, if one of these guys had moved into my house, eaten all my food, smoked up all my stash, and sold my guitars, then I might have a problem. There are a lot of musicians who are probably just fine human beans, but their music is gawdawful. I could string 'em up like a pinata, and see who'd be the first with the stick... but nah, I just ignore 'em. Unless some idiot gets in my face and tries to tell me the Grand Funk version of Gimmie Shelter was better than the Stones.... then I will speak ill of the talentless.

 :P

Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on December 21, 2008, 01:58:43 AM

I saw Skippy Spence play drums for Jefferson Airplane. Amazing. He wrote a few great songs with them, before the did the business with Maybe Grope. Blues From An Airplane and My Best Friend, nothing wrong with those two classics, is there? And Syd, well if it weren't for him, no Pink Floyd. Who cares is they were a bright spark and then burn out... a lot of people who survived, only made one good record, and then tortured us for years afterward with useless stuff.

By the time I saw Moby Grape, Skip was gone, and Bob Moseley wasn't looking that well. Skips solo album has some great moments. I had a pal, who was a great guy, great taste in music, but sadly a taste for the whiskey. Him and Spence used to walk around downtown San Jose, getting outta their minds, often losing the car... I never had the pleasure, but I'm sure it was not fun for anyone else.

I won't join in a game of knocking real talents, due to "personal" problems. All I'm concerned about is the music. Now, if one of these guys had moved into my house, eaten all my food, smoked up all my stash, and sold my guitars, then I might have a problem. There are a lot of musicians who are probably just fine human beans, but their music is gawdawful. I could string 'em up like a pinata, and see who'd be the first with the stick... but nah, I just ignore 'em. Unless some idiot gets in my face and tries to tell me the Grand Funk version of Gimmie Shelter was better than the Stones.... then I will speak ill of the talentless.

Ron,

Don't think that I necessarily subscribe to the cold and harsh contra-opinion scenario that I laid out for discussion. I probably hover somewhere in between. Your points are all good, especially Grand Funk. Could they do anything better than somebody else? I doubt it.

Now I love Moby Grape but a while back I finally got a copy of "Oar" and hated every second of it. Whereas I hold Moby Grape 69 up as one of my favourites, despite only one Spence original that the others finished off, so understandably did wonder how "essential" Skippy really was. As for JA, "J.P.P. McStep B. Blues" is my favourite Skip moment.

Syd Barrett? Yes, no Floyd without him. But I'll take "More" as my favourite Floyd LP any day of the week. I do have a soft spot for "See Emily Play" but have no more opinion on Syd, which is why I ask the question...
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Nick Nation on December 21, 2008, 10:54:35 AM
Maybe Grope.

Oops, I've been triggered. Nothing can stop me now. I am past the point of inevitability....

The Dreadful Gate.

Next......
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Mark Davies on December 21, 2008, 12:25:27 PM
Allmans did use the format better, as you say, but still I'd go further than that though - did the Allmans need two drummers? Does anybody?

For me, yes they did. The fact that there was always so much going with the rhythm section was a big piece of the Allman's sound.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: mikes on December 21, 2008, 05:29:40 PM
It did work with the Doobie Brothers as well.

By the way: Who's hanging 'round musicians all the time? - Drummers.  ;)
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on December 21, 2008, 05:52:44 PM
I did always enjoy the mix of Sam Clayton's percussion with Richie Haywards full kit in Little Feat - maybe some different percussion to complement one main drummer gives it an edge.

But yes - both Doobies and Allmans used two drummers far more effectively than the Dead, who simply became the Mickey Hart show.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Rob the Organ on December 21, 2008, 05:56:45 PM
Maybe Grope.

Oops, I've been triggered. Nothing can stop me now. I am past the point of inevitability....

The Dreadful Gate.

Next......

Best not to attempt Country Joe & the Fish.....
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Ron S on December 21, 2008, 08:48:22 PM


Syd Barrett? Yes, no Floyd without him. But I'll take "More" as my favourite Floyd LP any day of the week. I do have a soft spot for "See Emily Play" but have no more opinion on Syd, which is why I ask the question...

Piper and the related singles are different enough to be considered a separate band. I agree, More is a wonderful record, and along with Obscured By Clouds at the top of my Floyd play list. These are the only other PF records besides Piper (and to a certain extent Saucer) which are not dominated by a concept, leaving just a nice collection of songs. The songs on Piper are very special to me, and they clearly were a major influence on every UK psych type band for the next couple of years.
Title: Re: Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault
Post by: Davey on December 22, 2008, 09:12:24 AM
yes syd was a serious dude. he wasn't phoning it in(not in the traditional meaning).you

know,listening to the man at winterland 75 intro of c'mon,you hear the balls of man getting over(i.e.and

carrying the torch)playing stuff(man was also on the ground floor in this regard) that got syd pegged as a

nut job(although apparently the crowds in san fran were digging it when he was doing that).because of

the nature of the music business,i don't believe syd barrett got a fair shake.that's my opinion and i'm

sticking to it.peace to the rest of floyd and everything...good night for now,just on the tip of the ice berg

as it were-love and peace-davey