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General Category => Man - General Discussion => Topic started by: Rob the Organ on March 12, 2018, 11:39:09 PM

Title: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Rob the Organ on March 12, 2018, 11:39:09 PM
I sent Michael a text earlier to request that this bootleg was included in the album by album review and he said “off you go, then” so here goes.

A rough quality audience recording from 1970 and much about it is curious. Incredibly rare on (original) vinyl and reissued on CD twice with very different mixes –  the Italian label Aulica released it as “The Honest One” with a different cover, slightly cleaned up sound but all the stage announcements lopped off and funny stereo panning, and Point’s reissue with original sleeve and title reverted back to (I suspect) transcription straight off a copy of the LP, stage announcements reinstated and silly panning gone but slightly muddier sound (but for my money the easier variant to deal with).

Yet more contention surrounds the date – claimed to be May 1970 when most reckon October of the same year. I’m sure I recall a debate whether it is the Stadtpark in Hamburg or the Ernst Merck Halle. Some say it was the first gig of the Ace/Williams rhythm section. Will we ever really know?

What’s to defend about it – it is a fascinating listen! Julian Gough said that 2ozOPWAHITM was a band who’d hit upon something but didn’t know what to do with it yet, and this is that same thing magnified tenfold. Deke had gone and come back again, Ray and Jeff had gone (and so had all the material from their tenure barring The Storm) and the seminal Ace/Williams rhythm section was in place.

Spunk Rock had started to evolve. The “formal” intro is still there but by now Clive hollers the song not unlike a less-modulating Chappo might have sung it. Great solos from everybody – Clive is on fire especially!

Would The Christians Wait Five Minutes? is embryonic and suggests this began life as something that the Deke-less band had rustled up. The main theme is there, but none of the studio cut’s spacy middle section - instead Ace bursts into song about “a beautiful day in summer” and Deke’s infamous tin whistle can be heard too! There is also no sign yet of the ascending-then-descending chord end mantra that graced the studio cut.
(Note it seems like there are four eras of WTCW5M?TLAHAD mainly centred around what to do in the middle: 1) the version on this bootleg with Ace’s summer song included and a reprise of the opening riff as an ending; 2) the Beat Club variant with Ace’s song eschewed in favour of some vocal effects by MJ and the ending in place; 3) the studio cut with spacy middle section; 4) the song abandoned formally but a beefed-up version of the ending retained in jams as per the last few mins of Padget Rooms)

Alchemist of The Mind/Scholar of Consciousness is a pair of jams from which not only do we get the familiar Alchemist riff (which I always thought out-Sabbath’d Sabbath) but a very early glimpse of the “My Eyes Are Burning” riff from MACBFGU, more than a whole album too early!

Blistering guitars on Daughter of the Fireplace which at this stage lacks the cowbell and one-chord backdrop that would eventually underpin Deke’s solo.

The Storm is a relatively faithful run through the familiar studio arrangement (no Prelude) with the centre section suitably beefed up by organ and electric guitars.

And of course, the only easy way of hearing Conscience which again with hindsight sounds like something that Ace had got together during Deke’s piano factory period – a riffy rocker that was not persevered with long and I can see why, as it strikes me as a tune that works well live but would go nowhere in the studio.

It’s impossible to separate To Live For To Die from this clip, it really is more of the same, but recorded much better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSjL-rGsCUw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSjL-rGsCUw)
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Nick Nation on March 14, 2018, 04:42:55 PM
Ahh, glad you included the album Rob. It was Clint's favourite Man album and yes, his solo on 'Spunk Rock' is great!

Some say it was the first gig of the Ace/Williams rhythm section. Will we ever really know?
According to Terry it was.

Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Rob the Organ on March 14, 2018, 10:00:55 PM
Ahh, glad you included the album Rob. It was Clint's favourite Man album and yes, his solo on 'Spunk Rock' is great!

Some say it was the first gig of the Ace/Williams rhythm section. Will we ever really know?
According to Terry it was.

It’s always irked me that Clint is presented in most accounts as this initial founding presence who dwindled to nothing by 1972 and just hung out in the audience smoking weed. Evidence to my ears points that he was every bit as on fire as the others for most of his initial tenure, became a bit disillusioned and merely left a couple of months before the entire line-up became disillusioned and fell to bits anyway...
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: rockprof on March 16, 2018, 09:46:51 AM
Pretty avant-garde stuff for the time when you consider it. And proof if ever it was required that they were far better suited to stage than studio.
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: joan on March 16, 2018, 06:41:34 PM
According to To live for to die CD text this show was filmed for a German TV  :o :o :o

Romain is not on this CD but I am thinking about an early version with different lyrics and melody I listened to last week. Can't find it now. What year was this first version?
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: joan on March 16, 2018, 07:27:21 PM
I meant what month from 1970 was it
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Rob the Organ on March 16, 2018, 11:54:16 PM
According to To live for to die CD text this show was filmed for a German TV  :o :o :o

Romain is not on this CD but I am thinking about an early version with different lyrics and melody I listened to last week. Can't find it now. What year was this first version?

What's the betting this really referred to the now familiar clip of Spunk Rock/Storm and "Amon Duul where are you boys?" Ace interview?

I meant what month from 1970 was it

General concensus is October
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: joan on March 17, 2018, 03:24:59 PM
I've found it. There is a bootleg from supposedly August 1970, an earlier concert with the line-up Ace-Williams.
Different lyrics for Romain, and a very different way singing it.
Would the christians... with lyrics.

Any idea about it? If this is really from August then "To live for to die" wouldn't be Terry and Martin' first concert.
Or maybe "To live for to die" is really from May, as some sources say.

I read in Jule's archive MAN LP was recorded in October 1970.
I've uploaded it for you. Go to "Dime downloads and other torrents" topic.
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Rob the Organ on March 17, 2018, 05:15:02 PM
I've found it. There is a bootleg from supposedly August 1970, an earlier concert with the line-up Ace-Williams.
etc..
I've uploaded it for you. Go to "Dime downloads and other torrents" topic.

Good man! Ta so much.
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Rob the Organ on March 17, 2018, 06:13:08 PM
Have listened to Joan's Aug 1970 bootleg. Seems we can place TLFTD before it and return to the original idea that the gig was in May, not Oct 1970. 1) The version of "Christians" is much more advanced on the August recording, as (2) is the guitar solo section in DOTF to an extent. Also (3) the emergence of any version at all of Romain/FSR&R and Country Girl into the set and (4) the "proper" Spunk Rock ending is in place.

A FIFTH variant of Christians then - one where Ace's summer song has gone and the spacy section is in place, but the lyrics over the main riff when it reappears are still there. Most interesting is that Micky's chant is there on the August bootleg too - which as Beat Club 1971 was the main source of hearing it, I'd assumed it was a feature that evolved after the studio recording in October, but apparently not!
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Nick Nation on March 19, 2018, 04:55:15 PM
Alchemist of The Mind/Scholar of Consciousness is a pair of jams from which not only do we get the familiar Alchemist riff (which I always thought out-Sabbath’d Sabbath) but a very early glimpse of the “My Eyes Are Burning” riff from MACBFGU, more than a whole album too early!

Ahh Rob, Tritones. Think of the track 'Black Sabbath' on their first album...Ding, Ding, DANGGGGGG....an interesting article on this can be found here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4952646.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4952646.stm)
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Iowerth Pritchard on March 19, 2018, 05:15:11 PM
Have listened to Joan's Aug 1970 bootleg. Seems we can place TLFTD before it and return to the original idea that the gig was in May, not Oct 1970. 1) The version of "Christians" is much more advanced on the August recording, as (2) is the guitar solo section in DOTF to an extent. Also (3) the emergence of any version at all of Romain/FSR&R and Country Girl into the set and (4) the "proper" Spunk Rock ending is in place.

A FIFTH variant of Christians then - one where Ace's summer song has gone and the spacy section is in place, but the lyrics over the main riff when it reappears are still there. Most interesting is that Micky's chant is there on the August bootleg too - which as Beat Club 1971 was the main source of hearing it, I'd assumed it was a feature that evolved after the studio recording in October, but apparently not!

Ah, the continuing saga of when was 'To Live For To Die' recorded.  As previously posted here I continue to search for concrete evidence of the precise date.  The October 1970 date (as used in Mannerisms) came from the Pete Frame Man family tree in Zigzag.  The gig has always been attributed to being the first one by the Micky/Deke/Clive/Martin/Terry lineup, and so as Pete F. lists the lineup as starting in October then that was the date I used - easy and straightforward you might think.. well in a word, no...   Then came Deke's Rhinos book where he says the gig was at the Ernst-Merck-Halle in Hamburg, and after it they enjoyed an 'idyllic summer' gigging in Germany.  Hang on, October and onwards isn't exactly summer, and also the band played the Ernst-Merck-Halle on March 29th - wooahh, something's not right here.  My spies in Hamburg scoured the local press archives and turned up a few short references to local Man gigs but nothing helpful.  One even managed to get in touch with the late Jörg Gülden (noted German music journalist who also did the German translation of Rhinos) who was at the March 29th gig, and he was adamant it was the first with Martin and Terry.  But it still didn't add up.  If this was true it meant that the time frame for Deke returning to the band (early March) - them gigging as a 6 piece (including a 2 week residency at the Blow Up Cub in Munich) - then returning to the UK and gigging some more before Jeff and Ray were fired - and then rehearsing the new line-up, would have to be all condensed into a month!  Furthermore there is an interview with Martin where he says the gig was at the Musickhalle in Hamburg, and also muddying the water is a '30/06/70' date stamped into the runoff area of the TLFTD vinyl.

Then came a breakthrough - a photo of the Ray & Jeff lineup turned up from a gig in Belgium on the 7th May - now we're getting somewhere.  Then the recording from 9/8/70 surfaced which is definitely with Martin and Terry.  So the gig must be between these two dates, and if the 30/06/70 date can be taken as the latest date possible (why put this date on a later recording?) then I would place the gig with a fair degree of certainty as between late May and late June.  There was a gig at the Musickhalle on 7th June (which one German tape trader told me had a creaky wooden stage which he claimed he could hear on the TLFTD recordings!) which would fit the bill nicely, and at this moment this is the date I would go for, but given the convoluted history of trying to pin a date down I wouldn't say this is a definite.
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: joan on March 19, 2018, 08:18:23 PM
wow, what a mess!  :o
Thanks Rob and Iowerth
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Nick Nation on March 19, 2018, 08:40:43 PM
....and also muddying the water is a '30/06/70' date stamped into the runoff area of the TLFTD vinyl.

...which would tie in neatly with the 7 June date for the gig as Deke said the album came out soon afterwards.

Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Olly Goodwin on March 20, 2018, 01:05:05 PM
Glad that's sorted. Now, about King Arthur and the holy grail........
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Colin Salter on March 20, 2018, 04:12:48 PM
I remember seeing King Arthur's first band the Stone of Destiny in a pub in Blackpool, before they were famous. When bassist Lancelot and backing singer Guinevere left to form their own double act, Arthur broke up the band and recruited Sir Gawain and the Green Knight to complete the Holy Grail line-up. What I can't remember is whether that was in May or October 1970 ...
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Rob the Organ on March 20, 2018, 04:40:16 PM
I remember seeing King Arthur's first band the Stone of Destiny in a pub in Blackpool, before they were famous. When bassist Lancelot and backing singer Guinevere left to form their own double act, Arthur broke up the band and recruited Sir Gawain and the Green Knight to complete the Holy Grail line-up. What I can't remember is whether that was in May or October 1970 ...

There's a shot of a June date with Lancelot still there, but Sir Gawain already there banging a tambourine during a freak out section.

Ah, the continuing saga of when was 'To Live For To Die' recorded....
.... There was a gig at the Musickhalle on 7th June (which one German tape trader told me had a creaky wooden stage which he claimed he could hear on the TLFTD recordings!) which would fit the bill nicely, and at this moment this is the date I would go for, but given the convoluted history of trying to pin a date down I wouldn't say this is a definite.

Sterling work here, Iowerth. I do hope I haven't done like Tony Hancock did in "The Missing Page" where he and Sid turn up on the doorstep of the last man to have taken the incomplete book out of the library, who had been consumed near-mad by solving the murder mystery, managed to put it out of his mind again only for them to knock his door and stir it all up!

I'm inclined to agree on the Musikhalle date. Too many completely unrelated accounts support it: Martin's memory (given that it was the first gig of the new line-up and he was switching instruments he'd be more likely to have the gig stand out in his mind than those doing their regular thing); the date of the Musikhalle gig falling between the latest known live photo with Jeff/Ray and the run out groove date on the TLFTD vinyl; the recollections of the local fan/collector.

My guess is that the run out groove date relates to the date that masters were made - it certainly isn't the kind of album where much remixing or production was done between recording the gig and cutting the masters; three weeks seems do-able.

It's quite believeable for Deke to have cross threaded his own memories with Pete Frame's accounts and concocted the Ernst Merck Halle theory. Few would doubt the word of Frame, and usually rightly so. So if Deke referred back to PFs trees for line-up change calendar points, happily accepted Oct 1970 as the start of TW/MA era, but remembered the Ernst Merck Halle as one of his first ports of call when rejoining the band, actually some months prior, it's easy to surmise how this came about.

I might point out that when I proof read The Twang Dynasty word doc manuscript for Mr Heatley, Deke was convinced that Edmunds opened the final (1970) tour of Love Sculpture shows with Graham Parker's "Crawling Through The Wreckage"...

Again, all credit to Iowerth here. I've never been happy about Oct 1970 being the first gig of Man V3.0 given that Ray/Jeff went in the summer and three or four months lolling about just wouldn't have happened. Nor would the songs on Man have been anywhere near as different as versions on TLFTD with only a month to fully develop them between the erroneous Oct gig date and the start of studio recording in Nov!
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Olly Goodwin on March 22, 2018, 02:37:42 PM
I want to echo Rob's praise for the diligent investigation into the date of the gig, it is a source of amazement that there are so many of us who care so much about this great band, so long after these events.
 On unsolved mysteries; 7171 551. Lore / Deke says it was from the old letters next to the numbers on an old dial phone, spelling PAPA NES. Well 7171 works, but 551 doesn't. UK and USA phones differ, but neither work for 551. I asked Deke, he said " so I've fucked up again ?" and of course I instantly regretted asking him - that wasn't what I wanted ! I've seen some weird, numerology type answer recently, which I don't think works. Anyone know ?
P.S.  on record store day last year, I finally found a first pressing of Iceberg, which I've looked for on and off since around 77. With Mike Nesmith's home no. as the title of the song on the label; 2138920716 - A Los Angeles no. I just dialled it but he is either asleep (oops) or out at the moment. Or he has moved house since 1973.
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Jules on March 24, 2018, 01:22:55 AM
I've seen some weird, numerology type answer recently, which I don't think works. Anyone know ?

Yes.

The numerological answer has been explained a few times, not least of which is on a scrap of paper, buried somewhere in the Archive, written in Deke's inimitable scrawl:

P=letter 16, add the digits until you get a single number 1+6=7
A=letter 1
P=letter 16, add the digits until you get a single number 1+6=7
A=letter 1
N=letter 14, add the digits until you get a single number 1+4=5
E=letter 5
S=letter 19, add the digits until you get a single number 1+9=10; 1+0=1

Result 7171551.
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Olly Goodwin on March 24, 2018, 03:54:39 PM
"Result 7171551"

Thanks for taking the trouble, Jules. Much appreciated. And the archive has it in Deke's own scrawl - impressive ! I'll look it up out of interest. Persuaded - i'm a believer! Funny how the phone dial story had wide currency for so long. I Can't blame Deke for not spending minutes in explaining this to a tragic fan. 
Pedant's corner;
Strictly speaking,according to the formula, shouldn't it be 71715510 ? Re-number for the longer versions ?!
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Tel on March 24, 2018, 07:54:46 PM
"Result 7171551"

Thanks for taking the trouble, Jules. Much appreciated. And the archive has it in Deke's own scrawl - impressive ! I'll look it up out of interest. Persuaded - i'm a believer! Funny how the phone dial story had wide currency for so long. I Can't blame Deke for not spending minutes in explaining this to a tragic fan. 
Pedant's corner;
Strictly speaking,according to the formula, shouldn't it be 71715510 ? Re-number for the longer versions ?!

Jules is not unique with Deke's Scrawl. We were at one gig at the Royal Standard, Walthamstowe and asked Deke if he would write out the lyrics for Romain - which he kindly did. He struggled slightly with the last verse ("Martin sings that bit" was his comment.) They were signed by deke, Martin and Mickey!

If you want to see them, then either nip over to the archive and follow discography, lyrics, R, Romain and there is a link at the end - or just look here.

http://www.manband-archive.com/evolution/graphics/romain-lyrics.gif (http://www.manband-archive.com/evolution/graphics/romain-lyrics.gif)

Tel
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Tel on March 24, 2018, 07:55:28 PM
"Result 7171551"

Thanks for taking the trouble, Jules. Much appreciated. And the archive has it in Deke's own scrawl - impressive ! I'll look it up out of interest. Persuaded - i'm a believer! Funny how the phone dial story had wide currency for so long. I Can't blame Deke for not spending minutes in explaining this to a tragic fan. 
Pedant's corner;
Strictly speaking,according to the formula, shouldn't it be 71715510 ? Re-number for the longer versions ?!

Jules is not unique with Deke's Scrawl. We were at one gig at the Royal Standard, Walthamstowe and asked Deke if he would write out the lyrics for Romain - which he kindly did. He struggled slightly with the last verse ("Martin sings that bit" was his comment.) They were signed by Deke, Martin and Mickey!

If you want to see them, then either nip over to the archive and follow discography, lyrics, R, Romain and there is a link at the end - or just look here.

http://www.manband-archive.com/evolution/graphics/romain-lyrics.gif (http://www.manband-archive.com/evolution/graphics/romain-lyrics.gif)

Tel
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Jules on March 24, 2018, 08:47:39 PM
"Result 7171551"
Strictly speaking, according to the formula, shouldn't it be 71715510 ? Re-number for the longer versions ?!

Of course not. You can't have a letter zero. :D
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: George Jones on March 26, 2018, 12:33:04 AM
We (Son of MAN) are currently reworking Concience, watch this space ✌️
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: celias on April 01, 2018, 04:22:55 PM
We (Son of MAN) are currently reworking Concience, watch this space ✌️

I have been trying to decipher the lyrics (it appears as an "instrumental" in the Manband Archive) and the best I can do is the following:

Like a machine, wheels are going in and out one by one
Like a machine, I've never known (something) shout about anyone
Why don't you listen to me, then baby you will see what it's all about

Like a machine, wheels are going in and out one by one
Like a machine, I've never known (something) shout about anyone
Why don't you listen to me, then baby you will see what it's all about

Does your conscience bother you?
Do you feel the way I do?
You must be blind
I am (lonely) just like you
You are (lonely) just like me
Can't you see

Like a machine, wheels are going in and out one by one
Like a machine, I've never known (something) shout about anyone
Why don't you listen to me, then baby you will see what it's all about


Can anybody help with the rest, or put it right where I am wrong?
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Nick Nation on April 02, 2018, 05:00:28 PM
Thanks to the thread, I've been playing this album a lot recently, trying to picture what's going on. I haven't got the CD version, but I note the running order of the LP is different - the CD seems to follow 'The Honest One' variant. Also 'Christians' is titled 'Micky and Martin Have No Name'. The actual running order, which I suspect is as it was on the night, is 'Storm', 'Daughter', 'Spunk', 'Conscience', 'Micky And Martin', 'Alchemist'.

Quality wise, the vocals and drums are buried and sometimes the EQ goes astray. I've heard lots of negative comments about the sound quality of the CD in comparison.

I have a question for our keyboard guru Rob M - do you think the keyboard effects at the start of 'The Storm' are on tape, or do you think Clint is creating them on his oscillator jobbie?

One version of the CD (can't remeber which one) also credits George Ace on vocals on 'The Storm' but I can't hear her.

Talking of which, following on from what Rob said about Clint wondering off during the set - I can't hear him on 'Daughter' (he also doesn't appear on The Beat Club footage of that song) or 'Conscience', but he could be playing a very muffled guitar on the latter - I stand to be corrected. Lots of times.
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Iowerth Pritchard on April 02, 2018, 07:13:02 PM
We (Son of MAN) are currently reworking Concience, watch this space ✌️

I have been trying to decipher the lyrics (it appears as an "instrumental" in the Manband Archive) and the best I can do is the following:

Like a machine, wheels are going in and out one by one
Like a machine, I've never known (something) shout about anyone
Why don't you listen to me, then baby you will see what it's all about

Like a machine, wheels are going in and out one by one
Like a machine, I've never known (something) shout about anyone
Why don't you listen to me, then baby you will see what it's all about

Does your conscience bother you?
Do you feel the way I do?
You must be blind
I am (lonely) just like you
You are (lonely) just like me
Can't you see

Like a machine, wheels are going in and out one by one
Like a machine, I've never known (something) shout about anyone
Why don't you listen to me, then baby you will see what it's all about


Can anybody help with the rest, or put it right where I am wrong?

Here's my effort:

1. Like a machine, the people are hauling out one by one
2. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
3. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe (baby?) you'll see what it's all about

4. Like a machine, the people are hauling out one by one
5. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
6. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe (baby?) you'll see what it's all about

7. Does your conscience bother you?
8. Do you feel the way I do?
9. You must be blind
10. I am floating just like you
11. You are floating just like me
12. Can't you see

13. Like a machine, the people are hauling out one by one
14. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
15. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe (baby?) you'll see what it's all about


I'm not sure at all about the 'hauling' in lines 1,4 and 13 - other possibilities I nearly convinced myself of are calling, crawling, holding, and falling.  Also not sure of 'floating' in lines 10 and 11.  I think lines 2,5 and 14 don't repeat the 'like a machine' part although Micky may actually be singing that on the first couple times around behind Martin's 'not stopping..'.
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: celias on April 02, 2018, 08:35:12 PM
Here's my effort:

1. Like a machine, the people are hauling out one by one
2. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
3. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe (baby?) you'll see what it's all about

4. Like a machine, the people are hauling out one by one
5. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
6. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe (baby?) you'll see what it's all about

7. Does your conscience bother you?
8. Do you feel the way I do?
9. You must be blind
10. I am floating just like you
11. You are floating just like me
12. Can't you see

13. Like a machine, the people are hauling out one by one
14. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
15. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe (baby?) you'll see what it's all about


I'm not sure at all about the 'hauling' in lines 1,4 and 13 - other possibilities I nearly convinced myself of are calling, crawling, holding, and falling.  Also not sure of 'floating' in lines 10 and 11.  I think lines 2,5 and 14 don't repeat the 'like a machine' part although Micky may actually be singing that on the first couple times around behind Martin's 'not stopping..'.


Thank you Iowerth. Having listened again, I think you are correct on lines 1,4 and 13, although "Floating" in lines 10 and 11 sounds more like "phoney". I cannot hear an "ing" but I can clearly hear a "ph"! I also think it is "maybe" and not "baby".
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Rob the Organ on April 02, 2018, 10:09:55 PM
I have a question for our keyboard guru Rob M - do you think the keyboard effects at the start of 'The Storm' are on tape, or do you think Clint is creating them on his oscillator jobbie?

The latter. It sounds very much like the effect on the Beat Club “Christians”. Not sure what it is, but I suspect some kind of primitive analogue delay, which Clint would manipulate the repeat speed on, because I can do roughly the same with my delay pedal, which is a clone of an old Electro Harmonix “Memory Man”.
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Nick Nation on April 03, 2018, 03:03:09 PM
Well....I can't resist...this makes sense....

1. Like a machine, the people are rolling out one by one
2. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
3. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe you'll see what it's all about

4. Like a machine, the people are rolling out one by one
5. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
6. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe you'll see what it's all about

7. Does your conscience bother you?
8. Do you feel the way I do?
9. You must be blind
10. I am phoney just like you
11. You are phoney just like me
12. Can't you see

13. Like a machine, the people are rolling out one by one
14. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
15. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe you'll see what it's all about


I think lines 2,5 and 14 don't repeat the 'like a machine' part although Micky may actually be singing that on the first couple times around behind Martin's 'not stopping..'.

Yes agreed!

I also think there's a third guitar coming in and out after approx 2:29 playing along to the bass riff and 2nd guitar plus a solo at approx. 4:14 which sounds like Clint. I think.... 

Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Rob the Organ on April 03, 2018, 10:31:15 PM
Nick - now do the studio version of Alchemist can you?

There's something about "out of reach, split, and seemed to take my mind" in the chant, "Fading, departing" said by Martin among other things as the instrumental section winds down, and "Farewell, my bretheren! Farewell O Earth and sky!" from Deke - as a starter for you.

No hurry....
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Nick Nation on April 04, 2018, 01:24:38 PM
Nick - now do the studio version of Alchemist can you?

Rob, we're on the wrong thread....besides, there's another version of 'Christians' to waffle on about yet...let's go to the 'Man' thread...
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Iowerth Pritchard on April 08, 2018, 10:46:07 PM
Thanks to the thread, I've been playing this album a lot recently, trying to picture what's going on. I haven't got the CD version, but I note the running order of the LP is different - the CD seems to follow 'The Honest One' variant. Also 'Christians' is titled 'Micky and Martin Have No Name'. The actual running order, which I suspect is as it was on the night, is 'Storm', 'Daughter', 'Spunk', 'Conscience', 'Micky And Martin', 'Alchemist'.

A closer inspection of the between song banter reveals a couple of things that suggest the correct running order for the gig was in fact: Spunk Box / Conscience / The Storm / Daughter Of The Fireplace / Micky & Martin Have No Name (Would The Christians Wait...) / Alchemist Of The Mind, Scholar Of Consciousness (Part 1 &2)  This is based on: after DOTF someone (Martin I think) say something like 'man and a breeze' and then hums the 'Christians' riff, and after 'Conscience' someone says questioningly 'Storm?' (inferring it's next), and therefore the only correct order for what's presented on the 2LP/CDs is as above.  It's also possible there may be a song or two omitted before 'Spunk Box', maybe to fit the 2LP format. 

I have both an original vinyl boot and the Aulica boot CD, but hadn't heard the Point CD until I picked up a copy last week.  I can now see why some posters here have been so derogatory about this show if this is all they've heard.  It really is a dreadful version -  obviously taken from a badly worn copy of the vinyl which has been folded down into mono and then run very unsympathetically through de-crackling software.  I think this was the album cited by the Voicepants guy as having flecks of emulsion paint over it - and it sounds like it.  I did a side by side comparison of the 3 versions (see attached pdf) and both CDs have between track edits as well as some edits of the tracks themselves.  The original boot 2LP and the Aulica CD (which is definitely taken from vinyl) are both stereo, and despite some weird volume/mix fluctuations are a good listen once these limitations are acknowledged  If you can get a good copy of the original vinyl this is still the best way to hear this recording.  The Aulica CD is the next best but has been rather aggressively EQ'ed.  The Point CD is a very long way back in third, and it's a real shame that it's the most commonly heard version as it's sound quality badly detracts from what is a fascinating recording, and an essential piece of Manband history.
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Nick Nation on April 09, 2018, 12:08:58 PM
Excellent stuff Mr P - a well deserved Karma point for you!

...after DOTF someone (Martin I think) say something like 'man and a breeze' and then hums the 'Christians' riff

...Suggesting the 'Christians' title was thought of late in the day.
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Rob W on July 21, 2018, 03:03:24 PM
I have 2 cd's of this. The first was the poor sound (point?). Very poor, much of it hard to decipher. But I loved it. Was like reading a book where you conjure up your own picture, I'd listen and fill in the missing pieces.

Then a while later, the Rt Hon Peter Tuck, honorary adopted Scotsman, sent me the much better sounding cd. Like listening to a different album.

Got to be in the mood to listen to it, but when the mood takes you, a lovely piece of history.

From memory, highlight is the very embryonic MACBFGU.

One for the completist. 
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Rob the Organ on July 24, 2018, 11:14:09 PM
If you can get a good copy of the original vinyl this is still the best way to hear this recording.  The Aulica CD is the next best but has been rather aggressively EQ'ed.  The Point CD is a very long way back in third, and it's a real shame that it's the most commonly heard version as it's sound quality badly detracts from what is a fascinating recording, and an essential piece of Manband history.

If anybody has a mint vinyl copy and is within a three-day yak ride of my home studio in Twickenham, I'll happily have a go at a 'definitive' mix that sorts the vinyl version out a bit but doesn't have the negative elements of either CD release.
Title: Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
Post by: Newyorkmanfan on May 01, 2021, 09:51:11 PM
I'm pretty sure the lyrics of would the christians sung by martin go something along the lines of

"It was a beautiful day in summer"
"We had a beautiful way"
I wonder where. Where you are Now"

"We had to struggle now, there ain't no summer now"

"Were not together I read
your letters words "
"Your halfway round the world"

That was in the beginning before the bridge and micky started singing.