Man 1975 on Wolfgang's Vault

[Ron S]

Rob,

 Actually half of the "studio" side of Anthem is live.  I believe Crypicial Envelopement, Quadlibet for Tenderfeet, The Faster We Go the Rounder We Get and Born Cross-Eyed all contain live segments.  I won't listen to Anthem for years, and then it winds up on my turntable for a couple of weks.  Happy Trails is like that too, however I did buy it on CD.

I think we seriously jumped somebody's thread.  Sorry.

Ron S.,

 What are the chances of the video ever surfacing?  On the East Coast,  I missed my only chance to see Man in the '70's

I recently found an original copy of Anthem. The later version and all the CDs are the remix. It was at the thrift shop for the princely sum of $5. A steal. The remix of this and Aoxomoxa didn't do the music any favors. Purple lp cover might equal original mix. White cover is surely a remix. Along with the original mix of the first Neil Young lp, these were items that I was lucky to find along the way. I don't know why I considered the Anthem remix the rarity at the time. I guess I thought they might have made it better.

The vid of Man at Winterland must be in the WG Vault, along with all the rest. I got no pull there. It would be up to Esoteric to ask. It's a single camera b/w, but good fun. I suspect there could be vids from all the Winterland shows. I only saw one, which was with Ken.

[Gavin Crumpton]

Rob,


The vid of Man at Winterland must be in the WG Vault, along with all the rest. I got no pull there. It would be up to Esoteric to ask. It's a single camera b/w, but good fun. I suspect there could be vids from all the Winterland shows. I only saw one, which was with Ken.

There is, or at least used to be a link on the WV website for licensing enquiries, we enquired about licensing the Winterland footage for GWP vol2 but got no reply. But theoretically it should be possible to license this footage if it is still in the vault which it probably is.

[elwyatt]

It's good to see Man concerts finally making onto Wolfgang's Vault, they have lot's of nice Man posters.....if you can afford their prices.
Can I be the first to say, I'm not overly impressed with the Jam with John Cippolina, may have had his day by 1975, especially when you hear reports of Micky overdubbing bits of Maximum Darkness in 1974. Don't get me wrong love his work with QSMS in the late 60's and early 70's and that should be respected. Lets not look through rose tinted glasses though.
Brings me onto another subject, maybe this should be under other bands, people have been putting up favourite music to listen to, The Grateful Dead being very prominent in this section, Is it me, I have a mate that every other day put's yet another CD through the letterbox ordering me to listen to yet another release by them, I've been forced to listen to everything barring farts and burps by this group and I still can't take to them, certain live bits of Dark Star are OK but the rest, it's very hard to bear. I took a lot of acid in my youth, but no amount of drugs would induce me to like that American folk/country pap, crap and any other word that rhymes, very middle of the road music they churned out. You wouldn't even hear this music in a Califorinian lift/elevator, would just bore too many people to death. Anybody that pretends to like this music and you must be pretending, can I remind you the Freak Train left town years ago and you should have been on it...
I know One Man's beef is another Man's poison and music is in the ear of the beholder.But let's be real!
Hopefully this will stir up a little bit of a debate, the forum's gone a little bit quite of late.

   OK, so John B. doesn't like the Dead, or appreciate the enthusiasm of his buddy. Boo Hoo!  I ran into someone a while back who wished "they were all Dead", he disliked them so. I was blown away by his vehemence.  I have to admit I don't quite get it, having spent a significant portion of my listening time on them, and enjoying their music, both studio, live and audience recorded. Sure, they weren't always at their best, but that made me appreciate their great moments more. Sort of like Man's music. I have, I think, every recorded moment of Man, and its offshoots, that are  out there, and like almost all of it enough to hear it through, no matter which song (and I'll let him pick.)  Only a small bit, maybe 10%, reaches the quality level I'd want to present to anyone unfamiliar with the band. But I'm still listening because even the lesser bits inform my appreciation of the really good stuff.   Sorry you don't like the Dead, John, I think you've really missed a good trip, er, ride.

[Rob W]

You know, not only do I not get Grateful Dead, or most of Zappa, but dare I say it, I think QMS are not much good either. In fact, I see more of Man in Nektar.
So there..... 

[Martin Daughton]

I never really got the West Coast scene either. I always preferred the heavier end of the British psych scene at that time.

[Rob the Organ]

You know, not only do I not get Grateful Dead, or most of Zappa, but dare I say it, I think QMS are not much good either. In fact, I see more of Man in Nektar.
So there..... 

There is much San Francisco in the Man Band, but not the obvious bits!

The Steve Miller Bands' first handful of albums is where you'll find the Man reference points, not QMS. Yes, if you're a guitarist you can play QMS "Happy Trails" and spot the lick Micky has copped (much as you can playing the solo from Zappa's "Willie the Pimp") but for the overall sound, the Miller early output is a lot more telling. Mr Ace stayed with me after Herne Hill recently and, seeing my vinyl collection, asked for some of the early Steve Miller stuff for old times sake. If you have the "Revolution" soundtrack album (which given that QMS contributed "Babe.." and "Codeine" to this set rather than their own first LP must have been almost welded to the turntable back in Tierney Road) you'll find all sorts of Man titbits - particularly the ending of SMB "Your Old Lady" which, not mincing words, is SO close to what became the Spunk Rock ending that Martin's eyes popped out and he put his hand to his mouth in an "umm..." gesture!

QMS were almost certainly a great live act rather than an recording band (any guitar-improvisation-based act share that trait to a certain extent), with some exceptions - the debut is majestic, Happy Trails is mostly live anyway, and bits of Shady Grove are worth a listen. Deke's take on Dino Valenti/e is spot on - ruined the band with his whining and other than a few bits of Chippo on the two albums he stayed around for after Dino joined, the rest is dross. Gary Duncan is a lovely guitarist and a perfect foil for Chippo (his solid style complemented Chippo's Bigsby-waggling antics beautifully) but the time had passed for QMS, and the relegation of Freiberg to bassist/backing vocals was the last nail in their coffin.

I love the Grateful Dead an awful lot but totally understand why some people don't. It's a Marmite thing again. But I truly do have sympathy for those that don't like them, mainly because I detest Steely Dan and nobody will buy that one at all. "Oh, you haven't heard the right stuff" they say. Actually, I've heard most of it and they only give up persisting when I say "Well, the first album isn't so bad - when they were a band rather than two tossers' egos and some hired help". So I have all the time in the world for those that can't find room for the Dead in their lives, providing a fair chance has been given.

But this is where I beg to differ - I am desperately TRYING to like Nektar at the moment but can't quite get it yet. I think it is the too-English-for-me lyrics that do it, which is why I went off Yes/Genesis/anything by Peter Sinfield etc quicker than Granada TV went off Peter Adamson. I think Roye Albrighton is a f**king brilliant guitarist, but have downloaded a few albums (thanks to Allan H and others for the tips) and can't quite find a song to cling onto. Certainly, there are moments of '69-'71 Man on the albums though, to be sure. It's all a bit too splashy and spacey for me with no good rockers to temper it.

I think this discussion might have revealed the true beauty of the Man Band - spacey as fuck when they wanted to be, but knew when to call it a day and throw in a Daughter of the Fireplace that people could stomp too, for good measure. Very few bands - US or UK - had that facility up their sleeve.

[Michael Heatley]

Your last sentence is so right.

My belief is that while Man have had three world class musicians in their ranks - Jones, Williams, Ryan - they've also had Leonard, the man who slung in a bit of grit to make the pearl.
 

[Rob the Organ]

Your last sentence is so right.

My belief is that while Man have had three world class musicians in their ranks - Jones, Williams, Ryan - they've also had Leonard, the man who slung in a bit of grit to make the pearl.
 

Exactly. Much as Dylan roughed up the Wilburys.

Not to underestimate Clint and Ace who fall somewhere in between - Clint played some very tidy Hammond that I have taken much influence from, particularly the superb little break in "Brother Arnolds.." and was also the other essential ingredient of the times - the catalyst, mover, shaker, whatever. When Phil called round to borrow the Leslie recently, he was saying how he loved Clint's style and the original "Iorwerth Pritchard" blueprint that became Man #6 was to have featured Clint on organ while Phil played pianos and synths. Now that would have been interesting.

Ace: the raconteur, the showman and never ever diss the one note shuffle - it takes a bassist with taste and restraint to groove on one note. Ace excels; Will nearly matches him. Ray Williams deceptively melodic. Ken was a different kettle of fish altogether (think Casady; Lesh) and John McKenzie really should also be added to the above list of master musicians. But is a Crusaders-standard bassist what's needed in Man? No.

[Mike Cross]

Ace: the raconteur, the showman and never ever diss the one note shuffle - it takes a bassist with taste and restraint to groove on one note. Ace excels; Will nearly matches him. Ray Williams deceptively melodic. Ken was a different kettle of fish altogether (think Casady; Lesh) and John McKenzie really should also be added to the above list of master musicians. But is a Crusaders-standard bassist what's needed in Man? No.

Here's what Micky & Terry had to say about bass players in 1975:

Since the end of that tour, four months ago, Man have done nothing. The bassist on those gigs, Martin Ace, has left as was planned from the time he flew out to California to replace Ken Whaley, who suddenly quit.

Now Martin has returned to his own projects with George, his wife, and Man are looking for a new bassist. They have a month to six weeks to rehearse - longer than they've ever had - to "get tight". Then they'll start filling out the date sheet.

In the four month layoff Man have been writing a few tunes. Micky is moving into a Gloucestershire cottage and Terry Williams, in a fit of temper, kicked in a glass door severing nerves and main artery in his left foot and losing part of a toe. "It was that or hit someone who might've hit me harder." So the time off hasn't been uneventful.

"It's really strange. After working solidly for four years and suddenly stopping. For quite a long time you don't know what to do with yourself. Play guitar, watch TV," says Jones. Man aren't advertising for a new bass player. They're depending on word of mouth.

A short list has been drawn up. "I imagine we'll have to do it by pin, like the old women do with the horses in the paper."

What they don't want is another stereotyped Man bassist. "We wanna get away from 'chunk-chunka-chinka-chunka-chunk'," says Terry.

"We need some new blood," says Micky, "to get me off, get everybody else off, so we need a bass player who's totally different from anybody who's been in the band before. 'Sfunny really, all the bass players that've come into the band you get the impression that they think they've naturally got to do what's been played before. We need a more melodic bass player."

"I know it's one chord," adds Terry, "and there's not much you can do on one chord, but you can lilt it instead of charging around on one note."

In Ken Whaley they had a bassist who was, by nature, a melodicist yet he subjugated that to the Man Sound. "We've suddenly realised that we've got a style. Lot's of people have said that we lack direction but I've realised that we've got a style, a typical Man thing. Now I've realised it, I don't want it," decides Jones. "Anybody who's got a style and they stick to that style it's gonna limit them. John has got a style. He's got a particular style and he's stuck in it. It stopped his musical progression as it would anyone who's got a distinctive musical thing and they play on it all the time. It's like having one religion. You stick to one religion. You're not taking in anything else."

"We want a bass player who plays like Paul McCartney, with a bit of Jack Bruce who can also sound like Jack Casady and whiff off like Phil Lesh," grins Terry.

Melody Maker 4/10/75
Reproduced in The Welsh Connection, Oct/Nov, 2005

Full article online at http://www.michaelcross.me.uk/jc/mm75-mod.htm

[Ron S]

I'd go with the Miller connection too. When I did CDTM, I took a compilation cassette with Miller and QMS and a few other things. It was on the hifi in the van when I picked them up at the airport. About 10 seconds into Song For Our Ancestors, they all said, turn it up. And of course when I had Uno plug the piano into the leslie, Deke hit one note and said "ah, Steve Miller".

QMS were a more rock band than the albums show. A listen to some early bootlegs show a fair number of heavier tunes than appeared on the albums. I would strongly disagree with Rob W concerning QMS. The first three albums are all fantastic. A perfect blend of those four guys...

Miller band were pretty amazing too. Really tight, something Steve was quick to point out was lacking with the competition. I forgot about that ending on Your Old Lady. What a great song... It was a stand out of the set I saw them play in 1968.

The thing that makes Man different from any other SF band, was there strong roots in full on American Rock and Roll. I'm sure all those bands liked Elvis too, but it's not something too many would admit. It was a lot of folkies in those bands, and a few jazz guys. And then Cipollina with his Link Wray obsession. Guy like Miller were pretty serious blues players, and his back ground goes back to Les Paul.

You know, not only do I not get Grateful Dead, or most of Zappa, but dare I say it, I think QMS are not much good either. In fact, I see more of Man in Nektar.
So there..... 

There is much San Francisco in the Man Band, but not the obvious bits!

The Steve Miller Bands' first handful of albums is where you'll find the Man reference points, not QMS. Yes, if you're a guitarist you can play QMS "Happy Trails" and spot the lick Micky has copped (much as you can playing the solo from Zappa's "Willie the Pimp") but for the overall sound, the Miller early output is a lot more telling. Mr Ace stayed with me after Herne Hill recently and, seeing my vinyl collection, asked for some of the early Steve Miller stuff for old times sake. If you have the "Revolution" soundtrack album (which given that QMS contributed "Babe.." and "Codeine" to this set rather than their own first LP must have been almost welded to the turntable back in Tierney Road) you'll find all sorts of Man titbits - particularly the ending of SMB "Your Old Lady" which, not mincing words, is SO close to what became the Spunk Rock ending that Martin's eyes popped out and he put his hand to his mouth in an "umm..." gesture!

QMS were almost certainly a great live act rather than an recording band (any guitar-improvisation-based act share that trait to a certain extent), with some exceptions - the debut is majestic, Happy Trails is mostly live anyway, and bits of Shady Grove are worth a listen. Deke's take on Dino Valenti/e is spot on - ruined the band with his whining and other than a few bits of Chippo on the two albums he stayed around for after Dino joined, the rest is dross. Gary Duncan is a lovely guitarist and a perfect foil for Chippo (his solid style complemented Chippo's Bigsby-waggling antics beautifully) but the time had passed for QMS, and the relegation of Freiberg to bassist/backing vocals was the last nail in their coffin.

I love the Grateful Dead an awful lot but totally understand why some people don't. It's a Marmite thing again. But I truly do have sympathy for those that don't like them, mainly because I detest Steely Dan and nobody will buy that one at all. "Oh, you haven't heard the right stuff" they say. Actually, I've heard most of it and they only give up persisting when I say "Well, the first album isn't so bad - when they were a band rather than two tossers' egos and some hired help". So I have all the time in the world for those that can't find room for the Dead in their lives, providing a fair chance has been given.

But this is where I beg to differ - I am desperately TRYING to like Nektar at the moment but can't quite get it yet. I think it is the too-English-for-me lyrics that do it, which is why I went off Yes/Genesis/anything by Peter Sinfield etc quicker than Granada TV went off Peter Adamson. I think Roye Albrighton is a f**king brilliant guitarist, but have downloaded a few albums (thanks to Allan H and others for the tips) and can't quite find a song to cling onto. Certainly, there are moments of '69-'71 Man on the albums though, to be sure. It's all a bit too splashy and spacey for me with no good rockers to temper it.

I think this discussion might have revealed the true beauty of the Man Band - spacey as fuck when they wanted to be, but knew when to call it a day and throw in a Daughter of the Fireplace that people could stomp too, for good measure. Very few bands - US or UK - had that facility up their sleeve.

[Allan Heron]

You know, not only do I not get Grateful Dead, or most of Zappa, but dare I say it, I think QMS are not much good either. In fact, I see more of Man in Nektar.
So there..... 

Not a problem with that - it's odd that there seems to be an expectation (reasonably widely held) that if you like Band A then you must like Band B, Band C etc etc.   But there's no earthly reason why you should actually like them.  I like loads of things that I'm certain would be greeted with a thumbs down by others on here, and loads that would get the opposite reaction.  (Let's try that out - been listening to Bruce Hornsby recently who's been on an excellent run on his albums put out in his own name i.e. not the Bruce Hornsby And The Range albums.  His boxset is a terrific collection.  My gut reaction is a thumbs down on this one so let's see if there's any reaction)

Having said that, I think you're right to say that you hear some Man in Nektar, but it's QMS, Miller, Zappa etc that you hear in Man which is a different perspective.   Still no reason for you to have to like them though 

I believe the band, or perhaps just Martin, were fond of Mad River.  Read an interesting article on them in Shindig recently.   Worth exploring as I see their two albums are available as a twofer.    Also, what's the score with the CJ and the Fish albums?   Would it be fair to say "Electric Music....." is a must, but the other two less so?

[William Rait]

Not a problem with that - it's odd that there seems to be an expectation (reasonably widely held) that if you like Band A then you must like Band B, Band C etc etc.   But there's no earthly reason why you should actually like them.  I like loads of things that I'm certain would be greeted with a thumbs down by others on here, and loads that would get the opposite reaction.  (Let's try that out - been listening to Bruce Hornsby recently who's been on an excellent run on his albums put out in his own name i.e. not the Bruce Hornsby And The Range albums.  His boxset is a terrific collection.  My gut reaction is a thumbs down on this one so let's see if there's any reaction)

Totally agree with you on this one.Also it also seems to be that bands that once you liked @ 19 or 20 don't work for you now seem dated etc but again there is a widely held view that once you like a band that's it forever!

[Rob the Organ]

You know, not only do I not get Grateful Dead, or most of Zappa, but dare I say it, I think QMS are not much good either. In fact, I see more of Man in Nektar.
So there..... 

 

I believe the band, or perhaps just Martin, were fond of Mad River.  Read an interesting article on them in Shindig recently.   Worth exploring as I see their two albums are available as a twofer.    Also, what's the score with the CJ and the Fish albums?   Would it be fair to say "Electric Music....." is a must, but the other two less so?

Allan,

I had the Mad River LPs at one point about 10 years ago (remember the "Edsel" label?) but didn't take to them as readily as I expected. The first one is pure acid rock whereas the second is a bit more laid back and countrified. I might get the twofer as I'd probably like them now!!

You are pretty much spot-on with your analysis about CJ&F - another act I bought most of the LPs of but sold them on fairly quickly: Debut is great as you say; second LP has moments but shows the expected downturn in quality creeping in. "Together" if I remember rightly has about two songs worth hearing (one of which is "Rock & Soul Music" that was featured on the Woodstock film) and then "C J Fish" and "Here We Go Again" largely forgettable, with the exception of Barry Melton's "Love Machine"  - but even that is better represented on a live version on the "Haight Ashbury to Woodstock" 2LP retrospective.

You might be interested in the excellent Moby Grape reissues that have surfaced from Sundazed - I bought Moby Grape 69 and Truly Fine Citizen recently and they've done a lovely job. Clint has often spoken about his love for that band, and I am sure that a little bit of Jerry Miller - a stunning guitarist - must have come into the style of Micky somewhere!!

If that's not enough Frisco for anybody - try The Sons of Champlin "Loosen Up Naturally" and Sopwith Camel's "Miraculous Hump Returns from the Moon"!

Regarding QMS versus Man - I think that anybody expecting a band churning out meandering riff-fests like "Many Are Called.." but with some US-of-A authenticity were bound to be disappointed by what was, essentially, a Frisco blues band with a few twists. The influence on our boys was, by and large, that of a lead guitarist and a lead singer rather than the band's overall style and feel. Yet it is also fair to say that where QMS differed from the rest of their scene was that, Freiberg aside, the band were all rock and rollers rather than folkies that went electric, which is certainly not true of Jefferson Airplane, say: Kantner was a folk club man, Jorma & Jack came from the country blues scene that they reverted to in Hot Tuna, Marty Balin was a balladeer. Cippolina, Elmore & Duncan were fully fledged lead guitarists from garage-y R&B bands, and Freiberg - the folk clubber of the pack - valiantly took up the bass guitar, ridding them of any folkie "strummer" influences.

Steve Miller was probably the best electric blues player of the acid rock scene. Mike Bloomfield aside, the white guitarists of that type tended to be Londoners! One honorable exception is the criminally under-rated Zal Yanovsky (Lovin' Spoonful) who remains a favourite guitarist. His work on "Night Owl Blues" is easily up to the standard of Clapton/Green brit stuff. Largely forgotten now, but a lovely guitarist in the same way as George Harrison: always unselfish.

[Dai Port Talbot]

Very true - a mate and I both love Frank Zappa. The difference being that (while I can dig it a little weirder than Hot Rats) I know when to call it a day, but my mate reckons that Lumpy Gravy is the best album ever made. Figure that!

Oy! I do lurk here, you know.

[Rob the Organ]

Very true - a mate and I both love Frank Zappa. The difference being that (while I can dig it a little weirder than Hot Rats) I know when to call it a day, but my mate reckons that Lumpy Gravy is the best album ever made. Figure that!

Oy! I do lurk here, you know.

Full marks for owning up but you know my opinion on Lumpy Gravy. Even I - who actually likes all of Man (1970) and if pressed can sing every note of H Samuel from memory - find it tiresome.

I tried Amon Duul II on the wife the other night and it was not a success.