Author Topic: Leamington Spa  (Read 74858 times)

Gavin Crumpton

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Re: Leamington Spa
« Reply #150 on: October 02, 2011, 08:42:05 PM »
So I think what you've actually confirmed is that this release is NOT sanctioned and its legality is dubious.

Please be careful not to mis-quote me Gav. I do of course realise that what you've said here is what you "think" I've "confirmed", however what I've stated is that current members of the band are aware of the release, and have endorsed it.

Any further queries you have should be taken up with the publishers. Any questions regarding distribution of any royalties due should also be taken up with the publishers, by those people who feel they may be due a share of any royalties generated.

Well Jules people on here (including George) have questioned the legitamacy of this release. They want to know that everyone involved is getting their fair share. Maybe youre happy as long as Martin and Phil get their share and everyone else loses out but I suspect many on here are not.

You really shouldnt have given forum members the impression this is legitamate and above board when certainly on the face of it it isnt and given past history people should be very suspicious.

So if anyone is concerned about this release then answer given the info to hand is that it is extremely questionable as to whether this is entirely above board as regards distribution of royalties.

 

Greasy Trucker

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Re: Leamington Spa
« Reply #151 on: October 02, 2011, 08:55:02 PM »
I went to Leamington with a friend, (Anna, one of the photographers on my magazine), who had never heard of Man, and certainly doesn't know anything about the traumas which have split the fanbase.

Her (therefore unbiassed) notes which she passed to me roughly correspond with Jules' mini-review (particularly the venue and the bar - she WASN'T driving).  The key thing she noted was 'the band went up a gear when the really old geezer joined them' 8)
She counts crowds in a different way to Jules, by walking round and looking at 'tops', God knows how that works, but she counted 220 before the set started and 350 between encores, my guess is the foremer was accurate and the latter alcohol driven.

I enjoyed the post-Deke portion of the gig as much as any gig since Derby Kings Hall 1976.

Akeno-Pool

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Re: Leamington Spa
« Reply #152 on: October 02, 2011, 09:51:10 PM »
Spot on Greasy.
We werent last in so must be well over 120
As good as the Feltham extravaganza.

Jules

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Re: Leamington Spa
« Reply #153 on: October 03, 2011, 12:05:20 AM »
Well Jules people on here (including George) have questioned the legitamacy of this release.
Me too, see previous postings.
They want to know that everyone involved is getting their fair share.
Me too, but it's a legal/commercial arrangement between the parties involved. I'm not one of them..
Maybe youre happy as long as Martin and Phil get their share and everyone else loses out but I suspect many on here are not.
Then again, maybe I'm not. I certainly don't believe I've posted anything that would justify your speculation over what would make me happy.

You really shouldnt have given forum members the impression this is legitamate and above board when certainly on the face of it it isnt and given past history people should be very suspicious.
I simply stated that Martin and Phil are aware of it. I have no information about any of the other arrangements that may or may not have been made by the people behind the release.

So if anyone is concerned about this release then answer given the info to hand is that it is extremely questionable as to whether this is entirely above board as regards distribution of royalties.

Yes folks, in the grown up world you have to make your own minds up as to whether it should be an essential part of your collection.
Boldly going.......

Gavin Crumpton

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Re: Leamington Spa
« Reply #154 on: October 03, 2011, 12:29:08 AM »
Interesting how you lose interest in the legitamacy of this release once you know Martin and Phil are getting their share. And it wouldnt be the first time you try to cover up Martin and Phils misdemeanours would it (KON write up for instance)?

In answer to your patronising comments on what is actually quite a serious issue for some heres a notion:

IN MY VERSION OF THE GROWN UP WORLD YOU DO NOT STEAL FROM YOUR FORMER BAND "MATES" AND THEIR FAMILIES ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE / WERE SERIOUSLY ILL. PERIOD.

Anyone beg to differ?

Jules

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Re: Leamington Spa
« Reply #155 on: October 03, 2011, 12:36:28 AM »
Interesting how you lose interest in the legitamacy of this release once you know Martin and Phil are getting their share. And it wouldnt be the first time you try to cover up Martin and Phils misdemeanours would it (KON write up for instance)?

There's no cover up in the Kingdom Of Noise review Gav, perhaps you should read it again. What you choose to regard as Martin and Phil's misdemeanours are just a one-sided interpretation of the facts. The several other interpretations are equally valid. I don't understand where you get the impression that my comments were patronising.

On a serious matter, if you have any evidence of theft, you should certainly take it to the appropriate authorities.
Boldly going.......

Gavin Crumpton

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Re: Leamington Spa
« Reply #156 on: October 03, 2011, 12:41:17 AM »
Interesting how you lose interest in the legitamacy of this release once you know Martin and Phil are getting their share. And it wouldnt be the first time you try to cover up Martin and Phils misdemeanours would it (KON write up for instance)?

There's no cover up in the Kingdom Of Noise review Gav, perhaps you should read it again. What you choose to regard as Martin and Phil's misdemeanours are just a one-sided interpretation of the facts. The several other interpretations are equally valid. I don't understand where you get the impression that my comments were patronising.

On a serious matter, if you have any evidence of theft, you should certainly take it to the appropriate authorities.

Greasy Trucker

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Re: Leamington Spa
« Reply #157 on: October 03, 2011, 12:44:29 AM »
Interesting how you lose interest in the legitamacy of this release once you know Martin and Phil are getting their share. And it wouldnt be the first time you try to cover up Martin and Phils misdemeanours would it (KON write up for instance)?

In answer to your patronising comments on what is actually quite a serious issue for some heres a notion:

IN MY VERSION OF THE GROWN UP WORLD YOU DO NOT STEAL FROM YOUR FORMER BAND "MATES" AND THEIR FAMILIES ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE / WERE SERIOUSLY ILL. PERIOD.

Anyone beg to differ?

I don't beg to differ but I do offer the following insight, originally written by a bard greater even than Deke: 

'Let he without sin cast the first stone'. 

If you have one bootleg, one bought-off-a-Turkish-market-trader DVD, one CD that someone copied for you specifically so you didn't have to buy it, or one fake pair of Emporio Armani sunglasses for that matter, your viewpoint is invalid because you are equally culpable.  Take a look around, and again this isn't personal to you Gavin, in fact I am struggling to stay virgin white myself - I don't possess any of the above but do condone my daughters owning rip-off DVD's.

Just a view.   
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 12:46:31 AM by Greasy Trucker »

Gavin Crumpton

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Re: Leamington Spa
« Reply #158 on: October 03, 2011, 12:53:33 AM »
Interesting how you lose interest in the legitamacy of this release once you know Martin and Phil are getting their share. And it wouldnt be the first time you try to cover up Martin and Phils misdemeanours would it (KON write up for instance)?

There's no cover up in the Kingdom Of Noise review Gav, perhaps you should read it again. What you choose to regard as Martin and Phil's misdemeanours are just a one-sided interpretation of the facts. The several other interpretations are equally valid. I don't understand where you get the impression that my comments were patronising.

On a serious matter, if you have any evidence of theft, you should certainly take it to the appropriate authorities.

Actually it isnt one sided I've heard what happened in some detail from the staff at the studio. I'd say they were pretty much neutral in this and had no reason to lie. And the stuff re Georges guitar tracks is utter bollox they were pretty much finished. Actually George has mixes of KON wih his guitar tracks present. They were deleted and replaced. Fact!

You've rewritten the bands recent history to show your mates in a better light and thats all there is too it.
It does seriously dent the credibility of the whole archive when you deliberately write and publish an article which is so inaccurate. What else on here is fabricated Jules???
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 12:55:26 AM by Gavin »

Jules

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Re: Leamington Spa
« Reply #159 on: October 03, 2011, 01:36:08 AM »
Interesting how you lose interest in the legitamacy of this release once you know Martin and Phil are getting their share. And it wouldnt be the first time you try to cover up Martin and Phils misdemeanours would it (KON write up for instance)?

There's no cover up in the Kingdom Of Noise review Gav, perhaps you should read it again. What you choose to regard as Martin and Phil's misdemeanours are just a one-sided interpretation of the facts. The several other interpretations are equally valid. I don't understand where you get the impression that my comments were patronising.

On a serious matter, if you have any evidence of theft, you should certainly take it to the appropriate authorities.

Actually it isnt one sided I've heard what happened in some detail from the staff at the studio. I'd say they were pretty much neutral in this and had no reason to lie. And the stuff re Georges guitar tracks is utter bollox they were pretty much finished. Actually George has mixes of KON wih his guitar tracks present. They were deleted and replaced. Fact!

You've rewritten the bands recent history to show your mates in a better light and thats all there is too it.
It does seriously dent the credibility of the whole archive when you deliberately write and publish an article which is so inaccurate. What else on here is fabricated Jules???

I stand by the review, and everything else in the Archive.

My review says George's guitar tracks were "left unfinished". Your comment says they were "pretty much finished". Spot the difference? I can't. I'm aware George's tracks were later deleted. The view I was given at the time was that it wouldn't be proper to present Kingdom Of Noise as it was originally recorded, as "that lineup no longer exists". Can't say I fully agree with the sentiments, but that's not my call. It wouldn't have been the first time in Man's recorded history that a release was issued with only two of the previous members still in the lineup. Bob still features prominently on several Kingdom Of Noise tracks, which seems to suggest it could have been done.   

From what I've heard of events in the studio, I couldn't regard the staff as neutral. From what I've heard of behaviour in the studio, I'd have to consider that a number of people stepped over lines that they might, on reflection, not have done. Your earlier comments outline much the same information that was shared with me. George offered some songs that were not accepted, either because they weren't finished or weren't regarded as suitable (I've not heard any of them, so I'm not entitled to offer an opinion). Phil, as the producer, had a running battle with the studio staff, who seemingly couldn't do what he needed from them, or couldn't understand what was being requested. Tempers ran hot. George and Bob sided with the studio people rather than their band. They were sacked. Emotions run high when people are under stress, and can spill out in unwelcome ways. Band loyalty, and dis-loyalty, sometimes comes at a price. For the avoidance of doubt, I do not blame George or Bob for the breakup, any more than I do Martin, Phil or Josh, or anyone involved in the periphery.

My review deliberately downplayed the situation in the studio in order to avoid needlessly agitating everyone who was involved, not just Martin and Phil. The aim was to provide some information about the music, with the background being just that, background. Each of the album reviews has an interactive section for Archive visitors to add their own comments if desired. Quite a few have done so on various albums. Obviously, defamatory or actionable comments couldn't be allowed to stand in the Archive itself, but there's a natural outlet for everyone to express more extreme views in this Forum.

I'm saddened that what was potentially a productive lineup of Man exploded the way it did. I voiced my opinions on the split to Martin at the time, as has also been noted here previously. I thought heads should be knocked together until they saw sense again. Again though, my personal observations were that the cracks were appearing well before the recording sessions, which served mainly as the flashpoint.

That said, we move on. I'm delighted to have heard James Beck and Rene Robrahn playing in the current line up. They both bring something new, which would not otherwise have happened. Both have talent and shouldn't be tarred and feathered by the circumstances that created the openings for them. James and Phil have a great musical relationship building and I hope they can develop it further. Perhaps it's worth re-stating that the purpose of the Archive is "Celebrating the past, present and future of the legendary Welsh rock band MAN". I fully intend to maintain that purpose.

For George and Bob, the future's theirs. I've followed George's work with the Cover Sluts with interest and I'm very glad the George's recent time on the bench has come to an end again. When "Son Of Man" get going, they'll feature prominently in the Archive, and of course any music released will get an equally biased and inevitably glowing review. Bob's career over the past couple of years has been a bit more difficult for me to follow as it seems to be mostly session work. Same rules apply though, if a band gets off the ground, it'll be covered in the Archive.

I would of course like to feel that I'd be welcome at the Christmas Jam this year. It seems doubtful in some quarters. I couldn't make the tribute shows (still bought as much merch as I could), but December's not out of the question.
 
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 02:21:22 AM by Jules »
Boldly going.......

Gavin Crumpton

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Re: Leamington Spa
« Reply #160 on: October 03, 2011, 09:49:12 AM »
Thats a VERY long winded view of saying "I went with Martin and Phils version of events"
By your own admission you heard both versions of events but reported just Martin and Phils.

After all Martin has such a good record on being straight and honest with everybody hasnt he?

Can anybody else here smell BULLSHIT?

I'll rephrase what I said, Georges guitar tracks were finished bar a little tweaking in pro tools. His songs were finished I have them right here on my hard drive. For my money they're a whole lot better than most of what did appear on KON and certainly more in the Man tradition IMHO. But dont take my word for it they should be on the Son of Man LP although obviously somewhat re-recorded. And less face it even allowing for subjectivity theres not many worse songs than "Chuffin like a Muffin" and ultimately Martin deemed that fit to be included.

And while we're at it any suggestions that the studio at Blackwood or its staff are not up to scratch are nonsense. It has a very good reputation and the Son of Man stuff recorded with the same studio staff sounds excellent. Again people will be able to judge this for themselves soon. But you jus dont get the best out of people by being abusive and intimidating. You'd think after all their years in the business Martin and Phil would realise that!

I'm sure you'll be welcome on Dec 17th. George has said he'd like it to be an evening of friendship (and music)
It would seriously help though if you take your head out of Martin's arse for one night or preferably a little longer! But I for one have lost a lot of respect for you Jules and what you're doing here with the archive mainly as a result as that utter nonesense you've written in that KON article.


Nick Nation

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Re: Leamington Spa
« Reply #161 on: October 03, 2011, 10:43:16 AM »

I don't beg to differ but I do offer the following insight, originally written by a bard greater even than Deke: 

'Let he without sin cast the first stone'. 

If you have one bootleg, one bought-off-a-Turkish-market-trader DVD, one CD that someone copied for you specifically so you didn't have to buy it, or one fake pair of Emporio Armani sunglasses for that matter, your viewpoint is invalid because you are equally culpable.   

I take your point, Greasy - but I think there is a difference here. Your example is of someone buying/acquiring unofficial product, whereas the concern here is of someone selling a product.

Bad enough when an unscrupulous label cashes in on a former artists subsequent success with rehashed material, but worse when it's the band themselves depriving former members the royalties to which they would be entitled for writing/co-writing much of the material, should this be the case.

.....but do condone my daughters owning rip-off DVD's.

Ahh, that'll be Voicepant's Man 'Introspective' then!

Bob still features prominently on several Kingdom Of Noise tracks....

'From what I understand' that was because they were unable to remove his tracks!



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Campbell

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Re: Leamington Spa
« Reply #162 on: October 03, 2011, 12:09:29 PM »
Well things on this site have certainly been rather animated of late

To quote from Gavin

I'm sure you'll be welcome on Dec 17th. George has said he'd like it to be an evening of friendship (and music)
It would seriously help though if you take your head out of Martin's arse for one night or preferably a little longer! But I for one have lost a lot of respect for you Jules and what you're doing here with the archive mainly as a result as that utter nonesense you've written in that KON article.

I beg to differ Gav,Jules invests a considerable amount of time providing this forum for Man enthusiasts and I think if you read his posts he tries to stay as balanced as poss

Peter Steventon

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Re: Leamington Spa
« Reply #163 on: October 03, 2011, 12:46:25 PM »
Two of us from Germany and a mate from Wakefield will be there an the 17th and will have a beer or two with anyone whos buying..... I might even dip into my own pocket during the evening
But Im staying out of this thread.

William Rait

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Re: Leamington Spa
« Reply #164 on: October 03, 2011, 12:46:43 PM »
I'M GLAD THAT DEKE WAS THERE AND ABLE TO PERFORM AS WELL AS EVERYONE WHO WAS THERE SAYS. I'M GLAD THAT MARTIN AND PHIL ARE STILL ALIVE AND ABLE TO PERFORM. I'M GLAD THAT WE ARE ALL HERE TODAY ABLE TO BE ROWING AND ARGUING ABOUT STUFF OVER WHICH WE HAVE NO SAY. NO DOUBT THIS LITTLE HOPE FOR TOLERANCE AND GOODWILL TO ALL BEINGS WILL BE MISUNDERSTOOD BUT NEVERTHELESS....

MAY ALL BEINGS BE HAPPY
MAY ALL BEINGS BE WELL
MAY ALL BEINGS BE FREE FROM SUFFERING