Author Topic: Album by album - To Live For To Die  (Read 8737 times)

Rob the Organ

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Album by album - To Live For To Die
« on: March 12, 2018, 11:39:09 PM »
I sent Michael a text earlier to request that this bootleg was included in the album by album review and he said off you go, then so here goes.

A rough quality audience recording from 1970 and much about it is curious. Incredibly rare on (original) vinyl and reissued on CD twice with very different mixes   the Italian label Aulica released it as The Honest One with a different cover, slightly cleaned up sound but all the stage announcements lopped off and funny stereo panning, and Points reissue with original sleeve and title reverted back to (I suspect) transcription straight off a copy of the LP, stage announcements reinstated and silly panning gone but slightly muddier sound (but for my money the easier variant to deal with).

Yet more contention surrounds the date claimed to be May 1970 when most reckon October of the same year. Im sure I recall a debate whether it is the Stadtpark in Hamburg or the Ernst Merck Halle. Some say it was the first gig of the Ace/Williams rhythm section. Will we ever really know?

Whats to defend about it it is a fascinating listen! Julian Gough said that 2ozOPWAHITM was a band whod hit upon something but didnt know what to do with it yet, and this is that same thing magnified tenfold. Deke had gone and come back again, Ray and Jeff had gone (and so had all the material from their tenure barring The Storm) and the seminal Ace/Williams rhythm section was in place.

Spunk Rock had started to evolve. The formal intro is still there but by now Clive hollers the song not unlike a less-modulating Chappo might have sung it. Great solos from everybody Clive is on fire especially!

Would The Christians Wait Five Minutes? is embryonic and suggests this began life as something that the Deke-less band had rustled up. The main theme is there, but none of the studio cuts spacy middle section - instead Ace bursts into song about a beautiful day in summer and Dekes infamous tin whistle can be heard too! There is also no sign yet of the ascending-then-descending chord end mantra that graced the studio cut.
(Note it seems like there are four eras of WTCW5M?TLAHAD mainly centred around what to do in the middle: 1) the version on this bootleg with Aces summer song included and a reprise of the opening riff as an ending; 2) the Beat Club variant with Aces song eschewed in favour of some vocal effects by MJ and the ending in place; 3) the studio cut with spacy middle section; 4) the song abandoned formally but a beefed-up version of the ending retained in jams as per the last few mins of Padget Rooms)

Alchemist of The Mind/Scholar of Consciousness is a pair of jams from which not only do we get the familiar Alchemist riff (which I always thought out-Sabbathd Sabbath) but a very early glimpse of the My Eyes Are Burning riff from MACBFGU, more than a whole album too early!

Blistering guitars on Daughter of the Fireplace which at this stage lacks the cowbell and one-chord backdrop that would eventually underpin Dekes solo.

The Storm is a relatively faithful run through the familiar studio arrangement (no Prelude) with the centre section suitably beefed up by organ and electric guitars.

And of course, the only easy way of hearing Conscience which again with hindsight sounds like something that Ace had got together during Dekes piano factory period a riffy rocker that was not persevered with long and I can see why, as it strikes me as a tune that works well live but would go nowhere in the studio.

Its impossible to separate To Live For To Die from this clip, it really is more of the same, but recorded much better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSjL-rGsCUw
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 11:43:15 PM by Rob Millis »

Nick Nation

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Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2018, 04:42:55 PM »
Ahh, glad you included the album Rob. It was Clint's favourite Man album and yes, his solo on 'Spunk Rock' is great!

Some say it was the first gig of the Ace/Williams rhythm section. Will we ever really know?
According to Terry it was.


Rob the Organ

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Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2018, 10:00:55 PM »
Ahh, glad you included the album Rob. It was Clint's favourite Man album and yes, his solo on 'Spunk Rock' is great!

Some say it was the first gig of the Ace/Williams rhythm section. Will we ever really know?
According to Terry it was.

Its always irked me that Clint is presented in most accounts as this initial founding presence who dwindled to nothing by 1972 and just hung out in the audience smoking weed. Evidence to my ears points that he was every bit as on fire as the others for most of his initial tenure, became a bit disillusioned and merely left a couple of months before the entire line-up became disillusioned and fell to bits anyway...

rockprof

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Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2018, 09:46:51 AM »
Pretty avant-garde stuff for the time when you consider it. And proof if ever it was required that they were far better suited to stage than studio.

joan

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Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2018, 06:41:34 PM »
According to To live for to die CD text this show was filmed for a German TV  :o :o :o

Romain is not on this CD but I am thinking about an early version with different lyrics and melody I listened to last week. Can't find it now. What year was this first version?

joan

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Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2018, 07:27:21 PM »
I meant what month from 1970 was it

Rob the Organ

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Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2018, 11:54:16 PM »
According to To live for to die CD text this show was filmed for a German TV  :o :o :o

Romain is not on this CD but I am thinking about an early version with different lyrics and melody I listened to last week. Can't find it now. What year was this first version?

What's the betting this really referred to the now familiar clip of Spunk Rock/Storm and "Amon Duul where are you boys?" Ace interview?

I meant what month from 1970 was it

General concensus is October

joan

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Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2018, 03:24:59 PM »
I've found it. There is a bootleg from supposedly August 1970, an earlier concert with the line-up Ace-Williams.
Different lyrics for Romain, and a very different way singing it.
Would the christians... with lyrics.

Any idea about it? If this is really from August then "To live for to die" wouldn't be Terry and Martin' first concert.
Or maybe "To live for to die" is really from May, as some sources say.

I read in Jule's archive MAN LP was recorded in October 1970.
I've uploaded it for you. Go to "Dime downloads and other torrents" topic.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 03:27:01 PM by joan »

Rob the Organ

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Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2018, 05:15:02 PM »
I've found it. There is a bootleg from supposedly August 1970, an earlier concert with the line-up Ace-Williams.
etc..
I've uploaded it for you. Go to "Dime downloads and other torrents" topic.

Good man! Ta so much.

Rob the Organ

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Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2018, 06:13:08 PM »
Have listened to Joan's Aug 1970 bootleg. Seems we can place TLFTD before it and return to the original idea that the gig was in May, not Oct 1970. 1) The version of "Christians" is much more advanced on the August recording, as (2) is the guitar solo section in DOTF to an extent. Also (3) the emergence of any version at all of Romain/FSR&R and Country Girl into the set and (4) the "proper" Spunk Rock ending is in place.

A FIFTH variant of Christians then - one where Ace's summer song has gone and the spacy section is in place, but the lyrics over the main riff when it reappears are still there. Most interesting is that Micky's chant is there on the August bootleg too - which as Beat Club 1971 was the main source of hearing it, I'd assumed it was a feature that evolved after the studio recording in October, but apparently not!
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 06:18:57 PM by Rob Millis »

Nick Nation

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Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2018, 04:55:15 PM »
Alchemist of The Mind/Scholar of Consciousness is a pair of jams from which not only do we get the familiar Alchemist riff (which I always thought out-Sabbathd Sabbath) but a very early glimpse of the My Eyes Are Burning riff from MACBFGU, more than a whole album too early!

Ahh Rob, Tritones. Think of the track 'Black Sabbath' on their first album...Ding, Ding, DANGGGGGG....an interesting article on this can be found here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4952646.stm

Iowerth Pritchard

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Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2018, 05:15:11 PM »
Have listened to Joan's Aug 1970 bootleg. Seems we can place TLFTD before it and return to the original idea that the gig was in May, not Oct 1970. 1) The version of "Christians" is much more advanced on the August recording, as (2) is the guitar solo section in DOTF to an extent. Also (3) the emergence of any version at all of Romain/FSR&R and Country Girl into the set and (4) the "proper" Spunk Rock ending is in place.

A FIFTH variant of Christians then - one where Ace's summer song has gone and the spacy section is in place, but the lyrics over the main riff when it reappears are still there. Most interesting is that Micky's chant is there on the August bootleg too - which as Beat Club 1971 was the main source of hearing it, I'd assumed it was a feature that evolved after the studio recording in October, but apparently not!

Ah, the continuing saga of when was 'To Live For To Die' recorded.  As previously posted here I continue to search for concrete evidence of the precise date.  The October 1970 date (as used in Mannerisms) came from the Pete Frame Man family tree in Zigzag.  The gig has always been attributed to being the first one by the Micky/Deke/Clive/Martin/Terry lineup, and so as Pete F. lists the lineup as starting in October then that was the date I used - easy and straightforward you might think.. well in a word, no...   Then came Deke's Rhinos book where he says the gig was at the Ernst-Merck-Halle in Hamburg, and after it they enjoyed an 'idyllic summer' gigging in Germany.  Hang on, October and onwards isn't exactly summer, and also the band played the Ernst-Merck-Halle on March 29th - wooahh, something's not right here.  My spies in Hamburg scoured the local press archives and turned up a few short references to local Man gigs but nothing helpful.  One even managed to get in touch with the late Jrg Glden (noted German music journalist who also did the German translation of Rhinos) who was at the March 29th gig, and he was adamant it was the first with Martin and Terry.  But it still didn't add up.  If this was true it meant that the time frame for Deke returning to the band (early March) - them gigging as a 6 piece (including a 2 week residency at the Blow Up Cub in Munich) - then returning to the UK and gigging some more before Jeff and Ray were fired - and then rehearsing the new line-up, would have to be all condensed into a month!  Furthermore there is an interview with Martin where he says the gig was at the Musickhalle in Hamburg, and also muddying the water is a '30/06/70' date stamped into the runoff area of the TLFTD vinyl.

Then came a breakthrough - a photo of the Ray & Jeff lineup turned up from a gig in Belgium on the 7th May - now we're getting somewhere.  Then the recording from 9/8/70 surfaced which is definitely with Martin and Terry.  So the gig must be between these two dates, and if the 30/06/70 date can be taken as the latest date possible (why put this date on a later recording?) then I would place the gig with a fair degree of certainty as between late May and late June.  There was a gig at the Musickhalle on 7th June (which one German tape trader told me had a creaky wooden stage which he claimed he could hear on the TLFTD recordings!) which would fit the bill nicely, and at this moment this is the date I would go for, but given the convoluted history of trying to pin a date down I wouldn't say this is a definite.

joan

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Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2018, 08:18:23 PM »
wow, what a mess!  :o
Thanks Rob and Iowerth

Nick Nation

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Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2018, 08:40:43 PM »
....and also muddying the water is a '30/06/70' date stamped into the runoff area of the TLFTD vinyl.

...which would tie in neatly with the 7 June date for the gig as Deke said the album came out soon afterwards.


Olly Goodwin

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Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2018, 01:05:05 PM »
Glad that's sorted. Now, about King Arthur and the holy grail........