Author Topic: Album by album - To Live For To Die  (Read 8738 times)

Colin Salter

  • Guest
Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2018, 04:12:48 PM »
I remember seeing King Arthur's first band the Stone of Destiny in a pub in Blackpool, before they were famous. When bassist Lancelot and backing singer Guinevere left to form their own double act, Arthur broke up the band and recruited Sir Gawain and the Green Knight to complete the Holy Grail line-up. What I can't remember is whether that was in May or October 1970 ...

Rob the Organ

  • Guest
Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2018, 04:40:16 PM »
I remember seeing King Arthur's first band the Stone of Destiny in a pub in Blackpool, before they were famous. When bassist Lancelot and backing singer Guinevere left to form their own double act, Arthur broke up the band and recruited Sir Gawain and the Green Knight to complete the Holy Grail line-up. What I can't remember is whether that was in May or October 1970 ...

There's a shot of a June date with Lancelot still there, but Sir Gawain already there banging a tambourine during a freak out section.

Ah, the continuing saga of when was 'To Live For To Die' recorded....
.... There was a gig at the Musickhalle on 7th June (which one German tape trader told me had a creaky wooden stage which he claimed he could hear on the TLFTD recordings!) which would fit the bill nicely, and at this moment this is the date I would go for, but given the convoluted history of trying to pin a date down I wouldn't say this is a definite.

Sterling work here, Iowerth. I do hope I haven't done like Tony Hancock did in "The Missing Page" where he and Sid turn up on the doorstep of the last man to have taken the incomplete book out of the library, who had been consumed near-mad by solving the murder mystery, managed to put it out of his mind again only for them to knock his door and stir it all up!

I'm inclined to agree on the Musikhalle date. Too many completely unrelated accounts support it: Martin's memory (given that it was the first gig of the new line-up and he was switching instruments he'd be more likely to have the gig stand out in his mind than those doing their regular thing); the date of the Musikhalle gig falling between the latest known live photo with Jeff/Ray and the run out groove date on the TLFTD vinyl; the recollections of the local fan/collector.

My guess is that the run out groove date relates to the date that masters were made - it certainly isn't the kind of album where much remixing or production was done between recording the gig and cutting the masters; three weeks seems do-able.

It's quite believeable for Deke to have cross threaded his own memories with Pete Frame's accounts and concocted the Ernst Merck Halle theory. Few would doubt the word of Frame, and usually rightly so. So if Deke referred back to PFs trees for line-up change calendar points, happily accepted Oct 1970 as the start of TW/MA era, but remembered the Ernst Merck Halle as one of his first ports of call when rejoining the band, actually some months prior, it's easy to surmise how this came about.

I might point out that when I proof read The Twang Dynasty word doc manuscript for Mr Heatley, Deke was convinced that Edmunds opened the final (1970) tour of Love Sculpture shows with Graham Parker's "Crawling Through The Wreckage"...

Again, all credit to Iowerth here. I've never been happy about Oct 1970 being the first gig of Man V3.0 given that Ray/Jeff went in the summer and three or four months lolling about just wouldn't have happened. Nor would the songs on Man have been anywhere near as different as versions on TLFTD with only a month to fully develop them between the erroneous Oct gig date and the start of studio recording in Nov!

Olly Goodwin

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 165
  • Karma: +14/-0
Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2018, 02:37:42 PM »
I want to echo Rob's praise for the diligent investigation into the date of the gig, it is a source of amazement that there are so many of us who care so much about this great band, so long after these events.
 On unsolved mysteries; 7171 551. Lore / Deke says it was from the old letters next to the numbers on an old dial phone, spelling PAPA NES. Well 7171 works, but 551 doesn't. UK and USA phones differ, but neither work for 551. I asked Deke, he said " so I've fucked up again ?" and of course I instantly regretted asking him - that wasn't what I wanted ! I've seen some weird, numerology type answer recently, which I don't think works. Anyone know ?
P.S.  on record store day last year, I finally found a first pressing of Iceberg, which I've looked for on and off since around 77. With Mike Nesmith's home no. as the title of the song on the label; 2138920716 - A Los Angeles no. I just dialled it but he is either asleep (oops) or out at the moment. Or he has moved house since 1973.

Jules

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2044
  • Karma: +38/-7
    • The Manband Archive
Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2018, 01:22:55 AM »
I've seen some weird, numerology type answer recently, which I don't think works. Anyone know ?

Yes.

The numerological answer has been explained a few times, not least of which is on a scrap of paper, buried somewhere in the Archive, written in Deke's inimitable scrawl:

P=letter 16, add the digits until you get a single number 1+6=7
A=letter 1
P=letter 16, add the digits until you get a single number 1+6=7
A=letter 1
N=letter 14, add the digits until you get a single number 1+4=5
E=letter 5
S=letter 19, add the digits until you get a single number 1+9=10; 1+0=1

Result 7171551.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 08:51:14 PM by Jules »
Boldly going.......

Olly Goodwin

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 165
  • Karma: +14/-0
Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2018, 03:54:39 PM »
"Result 7171551"

Thanks for taking the trouble, Jules. Much appreciated. And the archive has it in Deke's own scrawl - impressive ! I'll look it up out of interest. Persuaded - i'm a believer! Funny how the phone dial story had wide currency for so long. I Can't blame Deke for not spending minutes in explaining this to a tragic fan. 
Pedant's corner;
Strictly speaking,according to the formula, shouldn't it be 71715510 ? Re-number for the longer versions ?!

Tel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1685
  • Karma: +10/-1
Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2018, 07:54:46 PM »
"Result 7171551"

Thanks for taking the trouble, Jules. Much appreciated. And the archive has it in Deke's own scrawl - impressive ! I'll look it up out of interest. Persuaded - i'm a believer! Funny how the phone dial story had wide currency for so long. I Can't blame Deke for not spending minutes in explaining this to a tragic fan. 
Pedant's corner;
Strictly speaking,according to the formula, shouldn't it be 71715510 ? Re-number for the longer versions ?!

Jules is not unique with Deke's Scrawl. We were at one gig at the Royal Standard, Walthamstowe and asked Deke if he would write out the lyrics for Romain - which he kindly did. He struggled slightly with the last verse ("Martin sings that bit" was his comment.) They were signed by deke, Martin and Mickey!

If you want to see them, then either nip over to the archive and follow discography, lyrics, R, Romain and there is a link at the end - or just look here.

http://www.manband-archive.com/evolution/graphics/romain-lyrics.gif

Tel

Tel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1685
  • Karma: +10/-1
Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2018, 07:55:28 PM »
"Result 7171551"

Thanks for taking the trouble, Jules. Much appreciated. And the archive has it in Deke's own scrawl - impressive ! I'll look it up out of interest. Persuaded - i'm a believer! Funny how the phone dial story had wide currency for so long. I Can't blame Deke for not spending minutes in explaining this to a tragic fan. 
Pedant's corner;
Strictly speaking,according to the formula, shouldn't it be 71715510 ? Re-number for the longer versions ?!

Jules is not unique with Deke's Scrawl. We were at one gig at the Royal Standard, Walthamstowe and asked Deke if he would write out the lyrics for Romain - which he kindly did. He struggled slightly with the last verse ("Martin sings that bit" was his comment.) They were signed by Deke, Martin and Mickey!

If you want to see them, then either nip over to the archive and follow discography, lyrics, R, Romain and there is a link at the end - or just look here.

http://www.manband-archive.com/evolution/graphics/romain-lyrics.gif

Tel

Jules

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2044
  • Karma: +38/-7
    • The Manband Archive
Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2018, 08:47:39 PM »
"Result 7171551"
Strictly speaking, according to the formula, shouldn't it be 71715510 ? Re-number for the longer versions ?!

Of course not. You can't have a letter zero. :D
Boldly going.......

George Jones

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 962
  • Karma: +111/-1
Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2018, 12:33:04 AM »
We (Son of MAN) are currently reworking Concience, watch this space ✌️

celias

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 190
  • Karma: +24/-1
Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2018, 04:22:55 PM »
We (Son of MAN) are currently reworking Concience, watch this space ✌️

I have been trying to decipher the lyrics (it appears as an "instrumental" in the Manband Archive) and the best I can do is the following:

Like a machine, wheels are going in and out one by one
Like a machine, I've never known (something) shout about anyone
Why don't you listen to me, then baby you will see what it's all about

Like a machine, wheels are going in and out one by one
Like a machine, I've never known (something) shout about anyone
Why don't you listen to me, then baby you will see what it's all about

Does your conscience bother you?
Do you feel the way I do?
You must be blind
I am (lonely) just like you
You are (lonely) just like me
Can't you see

Like a machine, wheels are going in and out one by one
Like a machine, I've never known (something) shout about anyone
Why don't you listen to me, then baby you will see what it's all about


Can anybody help with the rest, or put it right where I am wrong?

Nick Nation

  • Crintabulator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2721
  • Karma: +117/-4
  • Micky Jones 1946 - 2010 Clive John 1945 - 2011
    • Nick Nation
Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2018, 05:00:28 PM »
Thanks to the thread, I've been playing this album a lot recently, trying to picture what's going on. I haven't got the CD version, but I note the running order of the LP is different - the CD seems to follow 'The Honest One' variant. Also 'Christians' is titled 'Micky and Martin Have No Name'. The actual running order, which I suspect is as it was on the night, is 'Storm', 'Daughter', 'Spunk', 'Conscience', 'Micky And Martin', 'Alchemist'.

Quality wise, the vocals and drums are buried and sometimes the EQ goes astray. I've heard lots of negative comments about the sound quality of the CD in comparison.

I have a question for our keyboard guru Rob M - do you think the keyboard effects at the start of 'The Storm' are on tape, or do you think Clint is creating them on his oscillator jobbie?

One version of the CD (can't remeber which one) also credits George Ace on vocals on 'The Storm' but I can't hear her.

Talking of which, following on from what Rob said about Clint wondering off during the set - I can't hear him on 'Daughter' (he also doesn't appear on The Beat Club footage of that song) or 'Conscience', but he could be playing a very muffled guitar on the latter - I stand to be corrected. Lots of times.

Iowerth Pritchard

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 165
  • Karma: +26/-0
Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2018, 07:13:02 PM »
We (Son of MAN) are currently reworking Concience, watch this space ✌️

I have been trying to decipher the lyrics (it appears as an "instrumental" in the Manband Archive) and the best I can do is the following:

Like a machine, wheels are going in and out one by one
Like a machine, I've never known (something) shout about anyone
Why don't you listen to me, then baby you will see what it's all about

Like a machine, wheels are going in and out one by one
Like a machine, I've never known (something) shout about anyone
Why don't you listen to me, then baby you will see what it's all about

Does your conscience bother you?
Do you feel the way I do?
You must be blind
I am (lonely) just like you
You are (lonely) just like me
Can't you see

Like a machine, wheels are going in and out one by one
Like a machine, I've never known (something) shout about anyone
Why don't you listen to me, then baby you will see what it's all about


Can anybody help with the rest, or put it right where I am wrong?

Here's my effort:

1. Like a machine, the people are hauling out one by one
2. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
3. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe (baby?) you'll see what it's all about

4. Like a machine, the people are hauling out one by one
5. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
6. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe (baby?) you'll see what it's all about

7. Does your conscience bother you?
8. Do you feel the way I do?
9. You must be blind
10. I am floating just like you
11. You are floating just like me
12. Can't you see

13. Like a machine, the people are hauling out one by one
14. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
15. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe (baby?) you'll see what it's all about


I'm not sure at all about the 'hauling' in lines 1,4 and 13 - other possibilities I nearly convinced myself of are calling, crawling, holding, and falling.  Also not sure of 'floating' in lines 10 and 11.  I think lines 2,5 and 14 don't repeat the 'like a machine' part although Micky may actually be singing that on the first couple times around behind Martin's 'not stopping..'.

celias

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 190
  • Karma: +24/-1
Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2018, 08:35:12 PM »
Here's my effort:

1. Like a machine, the people are hauling out one by one
2. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
3. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe (baby?) you'll see what it's all about

4. Like a machine, the people are hauling out one by one
5. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
6. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe (baby?) you'll see what it's all about

7. Does your conscience bother you?
8. Do you feel the way I do?
9. You must be blind
10. I am floating just like you
11. You are floating just like me
12. Can't you see

13. Like a machine, the people are hauling out one by one
14. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
15. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe (baby?) you'll see what it's all about


I'm not sure at all about the 'hauling' in lines 1,4 and 13 - other possibilities I nearly convinced myself of are calling, crawling, holding, and falling.  Also not sure of 'floating' in lines 10 and 11.  I think lines 2,5 and 14 don't repeat the 'like a machine' part although Micky may actually be singing that on the first couple times around behind Martin's 'not stopping..'.


Thank you Iowerth. Having listened again, I think you are correct on lines 1,4 and 13, although "Floating" in lines 10 and 11 sounds more like "phoney". I cannot hear an "ing" but I can clearly hear a "ph"! I also think it is "maybe" and not "baby".

Rob the Organ

  • Guest
Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2018, 10:09:55 PM »
I have a question for our keyboard guru Rob M - do you think the keyboard effects at the start of 'The Storm' are on tape, or do you think Clint is creating them on his oscillator jobbie?

The latter. It sounds very much like the effect on the Beat Club Christians. Not sure what it is, but I suspect some kind of primitive analogue delay, which Clint would manipulate the repeat speed on, because I can do roughly the same with my delay pedal, which is a clone of an old Electro Harmonix Memory Man.

Nick Nation

  • Crintabulator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2721
  • Karma: +117/-4
  • Micky Jones 1946 - 2010 Clive John 1945 - 2011
    • Nick Nation
Re: Album by album - To Live For To Die
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2018, 03:03:09 PM »
Well....I can't resist...this makes sense....

1. Like a machine, the people are rolling out one by one
2. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
3. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe you'll see what it's all about

4. Like a machine, the people are rolling out one by one
5. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
6. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe you'll see what it's all about

7. Does your conscience bother you?
8. Do you feel the way I do?
9. You must be blind
10. I am phoney just like you
11. You are phoney just like me
12. Can't you see

13. Like a machine, the people are rolling out one by one
14. Not stopping to think or caring or giving a damn about anyone
15. Why don't you listen to me, then maybe you'll see what it's all about


I think lines 2,5 and 14 don't repeat the 'like a machine' part although Micky may actually be singing that on the first couple times around behind Martin's 'not stopping..'.

Yes agreed!

I also think there's a third guitar coming in and out after approx 2:29 playing along to the bass riff and 2nd guitar plus a solo at approx. 4:14 which sounds like Clint. I think....